What really happens to the tackle

How many times in one's life does one trot a river and at the end of a swim down, without the indication of a bite, do we find shelled casters or chewed maggots?

And how many times do you read that you have to hold back the float so that you get the bait to go ahead of the float to ensure better bite indication?

Well I often wonder if people have really thought this one out.

The water at the surface of a river, assuming a uniform bottom, will always flow a lot quicker than the water next to the bottom. I'll not go into the reasons why this is so, other than to say that this is true.

So if you let the tackle run down the river without check, the float will always run in front of the bait. So what we do is hold the float back to make sure that the bait goes first.

But is this a good idea?

I have caught umpteen thousand fish in my life without checking the float, believe you me.

When a fish takes a bait, does it go backwards or does it swim forwards? I have often watched roach and dace in clear water whilst they have been taking maggots, and most of them seem to swim forwards, on the lookout for further food items coming down with the current. If they do this and you are holding back on the float, there is a good chance that you will get a bite you will never see.

But let the float run through without check with the float going first and you are likely to see the float dip away as soon as the fish takes the bait.

Now there are the occasions when the fish will take the bait and drop back in the current. The bigger fish tend to do this and if you are holding back the float, you will get an immediate response on the float.

So what is the best - run it through, or hold back?

If we want the bigger fish, maybe we should be holding back. If we want lots of fish, as in a match, maybe we should let the tackle go unchecked.

And make no mistake, a centre-pin reel is better for holding back and letting the tackle progress smoothly than a fixed spool.

What do you think?

The reason we hold back, at least as i see it Ron is so that the bait is'nt dragged through the lower levels at the speed of the upper levels.....this of course results in an unatural presentation.....but not nes worse bite indication?.....but if the fish won't take the bait anyway?

I have also caught 100o's of fish by not holding back.....but over all i have to say my better days have been when i have fished efficently....eg reading the rate at which to let the float trhough.....and as you say definatly for the bigger fish....another thing i believe happens at times is that as we hold back harder than normal the bait lifts into what the fish know to be a faster water flow and before the bait has chance to "escape" it provokes the fish to take?

Yes, i would have to agree the pin is better for holding back, but in my experience heavier set ups are needed.... and can be a pain in the backside at times.

I can't agree with you Ron that holding back will not show the bite. For the same reason a bite shows while legering with a bow in the line, so will a bite register on the float, as the line will still pull through the created bow. If you don't see the bite you probably have the shotting wrong.

Running through at the pace of the surface water will score bites as trotting with a waggler proves, but a held back stick float will more often than not outperform a speed of the current run through in my opinion.

And make no mistake, a centre-pin reel is better for holding back and letting the tackle progress smoothly than a fixed spool.

ron for holding back if your any good with a fixed spool you can easily match a pin and probably out perform one,maybe thats why more are used, shame about trotting though its becoming a dying art wonder how many will know how to do it in 20 years time?

Surely where the shot are on the line makes a large difference as well Ron? If the shot are a bunched in the slower and lower levels then they will affect the speed of the float through the water. The shot creating greater drag than the line in the upper layers. The wind can also have an effect and if strong enough will stop the float entirely.

I suspect that in truth like most of us, you will use all methods, holding back, running through and laying on during a session and see what is the most effective.

http://www.learntofish.co.uk/

By the way, whatever method you use there is a bow between float and bait especially with strung out shot. The bites you don't see are where the fish has intercepted the bait o the way down or travelled downstream with the bait. How many times have you struck at the end of a trot and found a fish on?

http://www.learntofish.co.uk/

I created this thread to try and get a few ideas and discussion.

And yes Waveney, many have been the times when I have struck at the end of a trot, wihout seeing a bite, and hooked the biggest fish of the day.

It is an interesting topic and one that I have given some thought to over the years. Let's have more views by all means. One thing is certain though - we will never know the full answer - that is the beauty of angling IMO.

Ron with lamina flow, which what you are talking about, speed of current, upper and lower, and depth of water play a major factor in it. As does how far you are fishing from the bank because of the frictional drag influence that has.

I've done a lot of trotting for roach and dace in crystal clear rivers and streams.

I always let the float go through at the pace of the flow and the fish don't seem to mind a jot.

Often the bait will be infront of the float without slowing the float down so I don't think we understand everything that happens under water. There could be reasons for this such as upstream wind ect, but I think we get a little bit too scientific sometimes.

The basics for success are balanced light tackle and steady feeding depending on the amount of fish in the swim or the amount of bites you are getting.

Most of my quality roach have been caught by letting the float trundle down at the same speed of the current so this is what I continue to do.

I did see a very clever big roach from a bridge once. My mate trotted a caster (which was well infront of the float) at the speed of the current when the roach, which was well over 2lbs, engulfed the bait. The roach then drifted down at the speed of the flow for a couple of seconds before realising its mistake and spitting the shelled caster out with its gills flaring. Was it clever enough to know that drifting downstream gave it extra seconds without moving the float to inspect the bait? It was certainly an eye opener.

really interesting this one ron.a little unfair though as we can't experiment as the close season is on us,but,a noodle scratcher all the same.
does the hookbait behave the same way all the time with a different float?4no4/5no4/6no4?
are we fishing classic shirt button style or a bulk just below half depth?
does line diameter impede the action of the hook?is the hook the right pattern?i started playing with caster hooks whilst maggot fishing for crucians last season.

i think there are so many variants to this discusion that we wont know a true answer what is good one day will be bad the next i fished a swim before xmas and had 59 roach just trotting with the pace couldnt get a bite holding back yet when i fished the same river five miles down holding back slightly was the only way to catch if i let the float trot with the speed of the current i coulnt get a bite same float same shot pattern both times but the second time i could only get bites from the end of the run and they were very sly bites too even a two pound chub on this occasion only dipped the float some 8th of an inch i think its just pot luck on the day and keep changing tactics till it works not just floats and the way you tackle it its also feeding that plays an enormous part. god theres so much still to learn and i,m not getting any younger but god it is good and ron when i have my split cane rod out with an alcocks ariel well i,m in heaven mate

Ron,

I discovered what to me was a completely new technique a few seasons back on a tricky little Dace swim on a tiny crystal clear stream. The Dace lie under the confines of a couple of thick Hawthorn bushes overhanging the stream and because this is on a slight bend it is impossible to trot down to them without snarling your tackle on the trailing fronds of Hawthorn. Out of desperation one day I tried casting upstream of the Dace from below the bushes, and allowing the float to trot downstream towards me.

It is quite a tricky technique to master as you have to take up the line at the same rate as the float is travelling, but it worked beautifully and I bagged up some cracking Dace. The float travels in front of the bait naturally, and bites resulted in it burying out of sight each time. Of course you still have to be quick on the draw for those lightening quick Dace bites, but it's a method I've used in a number of situations since, and it works.

Anyone else ever tried 'Upstream Trotting'?

Here are some truths:

When you hold back, the line doesn't form a lovely curve with the hook bait leading it. Any aero/hydrodynamicist will tell you that you will get a 'U' shape with the closed end pointing downstream.

This is why you often don't see bites - if the fish drifts downstream even a little bitit won't take up the slack. It needs to stay where it is to give you an indication.

Letting the float travel down at the speed of the surface water gives half a U with the float preceding the bait. If the fish takes the bait and stays put you get a drag under of the float. If the fish drifts downstream you often don't see a bite.

Which is best?

I don't know!!!!

Quite right Sean.

What often frustrates me is trying all the variation, and playing around with shotting patterns, but still getting bites I never see.

people always imagine the tackle is working in only two dimensions, ie, up and down in the water or upstream and downstream of the float.

dont forget you also get sideways movement as well.

Ive watched float tackle in clear water and the hookbait can be travelling in a line varying up to two or three feet either side of the float in say 5-6 foot of water and being dragged all over the place in the currents.

so when you cant see the hookbait, in truth you have absolutely no idea exactly where it is in relation to the float, it could be anywhere within a 3foot radius of where you think it might be

only way to combat that is realy to just over shot the float and hold back with the bulk shot low down this should keep the bait down and the line relatively on the same line but as you say we can only hope its doing what we think it is, but hey thats half the fun of fishing trial and error has always been good for a laugh some you win some you dont you just have to keep trying just when you think you got it right you go to another water and need something completely different so i dont think there can be hard and fast rules you just have to fish the water your on at the time and try to catch fish ..... try being the opperative word tight lines all