Hit and Hold Fishing

Graham Marsden (ACA) · May 22, 2007

Nigel Connor made this point in the Keith Culley Memorial Match at Clattercote thread:

"One point I would like to raise though is that old barbless v barbed debate.The two fish I caught had a lot of mouth damage where the size 10 hook had cut through.A barbed hook is much better in hit and hold situations surely as it stays put."

I know hook size depends on size of bait, but a bigger hook, thicker in the wire, won't act so much like a cheese cutter.

Nigel Connor(ACA ,SAA) · May 22, 2007

Graham, do you consider that is more significant a factor than whether the hook was barbed or not?

I suppose the downside of using a barbed hook in situations where the fish may break you is that it that it cannot shed the hook.

No easy answer to that apart from using adequate tackle I suppose or not going for the fish in the first place if you do not think you have much of a chance of getting them out.

Graham Whatmore · May 22, 2007

This year I had one parrot mouthed tench a really deformed ugly looking thing and I also had one last year as well in much the same condition, not something you want to see is it?

We had this discussion about barbed versus barbless in the pub after the match Graham and I agree with Andy Nellist on this, there is far more damage caused by barbless hooks moving in the hold than ever there is with barbed hooks. I don't think the old chestnut about barbless being easier to remove has any bearing on it whatsoever, any fisherman worth his salt should know how to remove a hook safely whichever type it is. No, I am convinced the policy of barbless hooks is causing far more distress to fish than barbed hooks and the trend to finer wire hooks probably isn't helping either as you say.

Graham Marsden (ACA) · May 22, 2007

What you have to remember is that mouth damage is caused in two ways:

1. Through the cheese wire effect and

2. Barbed hooks being removed carelessly or incorrectly.

As far as barbed Vs barbless is concerned I use both, and not always because of what the rules say. In a match fishing situation I prefer barbless. I lost two fish on Saturday but I don't believe it had anything to do with them being barbless as I never once allowed the line to slacken and I've often lost more fish when using barbed hooks.

I'm having second thoughts about the argument that says a barbless hook can move more easily and therefore cause damage. If a barbed or barbless hook is buried to the bend (where it should be) then I'm not sure that either hook can move any more than the other.

But, the barbless hook has more chance of becoming properly buried in the first place.

Add to that the absolute fact that barbless hooks are removed more easily and the argument is definitely swayed towards barbless.

I'm not entirely convinced yet, and will continue to use both types of hook while I continue to consider the argument. There is no other way.

Graham Whatmore · May 22, 2007

Hit and hold fishing right alonside the walkway was the only place most of us in the higher numbers on Saturday could get a bite. With only six foot between the fish hooking itself and then diving to the other side of the boardwalk into the snags there wasn't much time to gain control. Most of that six foot was taken up firstly by the bend in the rod and then the line stretch plus whatever line the fish could gain, it was a no win situation really.

I personally lost four or five big fish through this but I never lost any tackle on the fish at all, mostly straightened hooks plus a couple of hook pulls. I know from what I could see from my peg that I wasn't the only one to suffer like this, both Jeff Spiller and Woody on the two pegs below me both lost fish too.

Basically a combination of post spawning maybe and the wind blowing into the pegs was the cause of pushing the fish under the boards and keeping them there but it wasn't an ideal way to fish for sure. I just hope that the fish I lost didn't suffer too much mouth damage as a result of this scenario.

paraman the pre-hospital care qualified blanker · May 22, 2007

"any fisherman worth his salt should know how to remove a hook safely whichever type it is"

You put your finger right on it just there, Graham! Barbed hooks cause more damage coming out than barbless. I'm not sure how people can argue this position. We use barbed hooks so they don't come out. If they can be removed easily, then why use them?

As Graham says, if a tight line is kept and the hook is at the bend, then the fish sould not be able to get off. the fact that it does happen, I think, is due to the way some fish can roll over the line, gain a little slack and then come off.

In hook and hold scenarios, I actually prefer barbless, as i feel they go in quicker, but should there be a tackle failure (which I know shouldn't happen, but does), or the fish reaches the snag, then the fish should be able to shed it. For all round fishing, I tend to use a small barbed hook with the barb partially squeezed shut. This leaves a little 'bump' in the hook itself. Cop out, I know, but the only compromise I can think of.

The Bone Collector · May 22, 2007

It is interesting to note that Prince Alberts water Dovemere used to have a barbless only rule.

After a few years since the rule was implemented it was obvious to all that the condition of the carp was very poor. Mouth damage was evident on many recaptures and on some it was was horrendous.

The club took notice of what was happening and implemented a no barbless rule.

Since the return of the micro barb it is noticeable that the condition of the carps mouths has improved significantly and raw tissue damage on many has healed over.

Graham Marsden (ACA) · May 22, 2007

I've heard that argument before. They also implement a barbed hooks only rule on the Cemex waters.

There is another argument though that carries a lot of weight: all commercial fisheries that I know of have a barbless hook rule. Now these guys are running a business, and fish are the core of their business. If there was anything to be gained by barbed hooks the commercial guys wouldn't hesitate. They're in the game for profit and if barbless hooks dictate fewer damaged fish (and therefore fewer fish to restock through fish dying from desease via the wounds) then that's why they have a rule to say you must use them.

Most commercial fishery owners have no axe to grind one way or the other where barbed or barbless are concerned. Their argument has no basis on what hook stays put when you're playing the fish, etc. If barbed hooks equalled more profit then they'd rule in their favour.

Graham Whatmore · May 22, 2007

I have removed barbed hooks from fish many thousands of time whilst match and pleasure fishing and I can say hand on heart I have rarely damaged a fish in doing so. How do you think anglers coped before the enforced use of barbless hooks and don't tell me they damaged all the fish because that is simply not true, fish care isn't just a modern thing you know. People that rip hooks out do it because they don't care or because they havn't learned to do it properly, barbed hooks are not in any way hard to get out if you do it right.

Graham Marsden (ACA) · May 22, 2007

I agree Graham, but carelessly removing a barbless hook does less damage than carelessly removing a barbed hook.

It always comes down to caring or not caring and most rules are made to cater for those who don't give a toss.

Cakey · May 22, 2007

there could be other reasons....i.e. crayfish

Malc Bason · May 22, 2007

I think some of the problems are caused my people fishing waters such as Clattercote with inadequately sized hooks. If fish are consistently lost, then something is wrong; if hooks are straightening, then there is the cause.

There must be an horrendous amount of damage caused by such incidents, then along comes the next angler and he catches the same fish and gets the blame for the mouth damage.

A bit more thought needs to go into the size of hook needed in the first place then hooks would not straighten and less damage would occur. Be they barbed or barbless!

Andy "the Dog" Nellist (SAA) (ACA) · May 22, 2007

If barbless hooks really did result in less damage then why were so many fish caught on Saturday with mouth damage ?

I had just two fish on Saturday a Perch of 1 lb and a Carp of 9 lb 14 oz. Both fish had extensive mouth damage.

To minimise damage you want the hook to go in and stay put and for the hookhold to be cushioned. The best way of doing that is to use a micro barbed hook and cushion the hookhold by using powergum in the rig and balanced tackle.

Peter Jacobs · May 22, 2007

Andy,

I'd agree pretty much with you, although I am not sure about the power gum addition.
Is there such a difference as opposed to using balanced tackle and a stretchy line instead of braid, for example?

If you think back several years we never really caught many fish with badly deformed mouths due to either careless unhooking or the barbless 'cheesewire' effect.

Nigel Connor(ACA ,SAA) · May 22, 2007

Powergum would have been interesting Andy.Would the give make it easier for the fish to make the snags?

What hepled me was the fact I was using a soft as butter through action old carp rod that cushioned the hookhold so I suppose that had the same effect. I'm lining up a few special tools for next year though when of course I will not be pegged anywhere near the top end.

If you were interested in fish welfare then you perhaps would not fish for them by the boards at all but only the most virtuous of us could have resisted the temptation given there appeared nothing much in the middle apart from by Graham.

Nigel Connor(ACA ,SAA) · May 22, 2007

Nice to see you posting Peter and I am sorry you were not able to make it on Saturday.

Graham Marsden (ACA) · May 22, 2007

"If barbless hooks really did result in less damage then why were so many fish caught on Saturday with mouth damage?"

Probably through hooking them by the boards with inadequate tackle. It doesn't matter if it's a barbed or a barbless if they're being ripped out of their mouths.

Steve Spiller · May 22, 2007

I've seen some horendous mouth damage to fish at a commercial I now refuse to fish, which has a barbless rule. Malc has a good point, would any respecting angler fish for twenty pound plus carp on a size ten barbless hook?

Many of the commercials have a max hook size of ten, is that fair on the fish? I caught a 21lb carp at the said commercial and its mouth was just a hole!

I think Graham summed it up "It always comes down to caring or not caring and most rules are made to cater for those who don't give a toss." What a sad reflection on anglers though!

Peter Jacobs · May 22, 2007

Nigel,

My laptop gave up the ghost last week so I am limited now to 'office' hours posting.

Believe me, I'd have far rather been at Clattercote than preparing presentations for the BoD who all arrived here on Monday.

Work.
The curse of the fishing classes indeed!

Nigel Connor(ACA ,SAA) · May 22, 2007

I have one word for you Mr Jacobs:

"Retirement" !!

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