Chub, Otters, Barbel and Heroes. Welchy Weighs In: December

This is a dedicated thread for discussing article: Chub, Otters, Barbel and Heroes. Welchy Weighs In: December

Its interesting you mention how a chub can pick up a single maggot and not get 'pricked'. I have seen it with my very own eyes, a six pound chub drifting off with a single maggot in its lips and striking into thin air! Fortunately it made a mistake the next day - I was fortunate to get a second chance....Very rare! I shall definately try saddle hooking them in future!

Have a good time over the festivities - that champagne is well deserved! Keep up the good work.

Kind regards

Christian

A generation Ian? A balance? I don't think so. This is what I wrote a year ago and I see no reason to change my mind about any of it:

http://www.fishingmagic.com/feature...apex-predators-and-the-balance-of-nature.html

See first pic - didn't know you were chums with Donald Sutherland....

As until recently I was exclusively a member of the public rather than also a fisherman I have welcomed the return of the otter as a sign of the returning health of our rivers. This would be my stance as a MOTP; thinking fishermen are just as selfish and narrow-minded as the pigeon-fanciers that want culls of peregrines. Another species that came close to extinction in the UK due to our heedless attitude to the environment.

Peregrine will always go for the easy kill. Otters probably do the same. Your 'Specimen' is possibly an old duffer that was due, in the natural order of things, for involuntary retirement.

soffit said:

As until recently I was exclusively a member of the public rather than also a fisherman I have welcomed the return of the otter as a sign of the returning health of our rivers. This would be my stance as a MOTP; thinking fishermen are just as selfish and narrow-minded as the pigeon-fanciers that want culls of peregrines. Another species that came close to extinction in the UK due to our heedless attitude to the environment.

Peregrine will always go for the easy kill. Otters probably do the same. Your 'Specimen' is possibly an old duffer that was due, in the natural order of things, for involuntary retirement.

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liked that....think there's a few old duffers in the specy world well past retirement now...thing is the natural order for them is to catch bigger at any costs

changing world and all that

I suspect we may be 'Pissing into the wind' here Jason The only specimen I had as a lad was a 18lb pike that came in like a wet blanket. As it was from a trout stream it may have spent too many years reaching that weight. My last fish of the day today was a roach about 3/4 of a pound. It gave a good account of itself but some of the standard 6 ozer's gave me more of a runaround TBH.

As my wife reassures me; size isn't everything...

Ian makes some fascinating observations in this article; including the observation of Pete Springate, who I ghosted for many articles back in the days when I was dep. ed. of the defunct Practical Coarse Fishing. He looks older, but still looks hard as tempered nails....

And Ian's tacit agreement that the problem on our fisheries has more to do with fish than otters is timely; it is, frankly, astonishing that the Angling Trust is wasting so much energy and effort on 'highlighting' the predator problem (as if that will do any good) and very, very little dealing with fish.

Our rivers are in an appalling mess due to past 'improvements' which have never been reversed (is it really so difficult and expensive to hire a digger to put them right?) and tragic over-abstraction by the water companies. There is still subtle phthalate pollution reducing recruitment and a host of other problems which the ATr needs to tackle head-on.

I must repeat the mantra; if we had good stocks of fish, we would not notice the impact of predators on fish populations. The problem is fish, not otters, and I am glad a learned scientist like Ian has confirmed this.

MarkTheSpark said:

I must repeat the mantra; if we had good stocks of fish, we would not notice the impact of predators on fish populations. The problem is fish, not otters, and I am glad a learned scientist like Ian has confirmed this.

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But he's still supporting them Mark - and so perhaps should every angler, for these reasons if not others

"I applaud Mark’s efforts and have gone on the record as supporting the aims - as far as our rivers are concerned anyway - as, in my opinion, anything which helps to highlight the state of our rivers, and in so doing has the potential to bring positive change, has to be a good thing. It is, perhaps, ‘doomed to fail’ as Paul Boote and others have suggested on the forum but when it is something as important as the future of our rivers I for one would sooner try and fail than not try at all..."

MarkTheSpark said:

I must repeat the mantra; if we had good stocks of fish, we would not notice the impact of predators on fish populations. The problem is fish, not otters, and I am glad a learned scientist like Ian has confirmed this.

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"Learned" scientists once stated the world was flat, even though lesser mortals thought it not so.

Berty said:

"Learned" scientists once stated the world was flat, even though lesser mortals thought it not so.

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Wrong way round Paul.

From Pythagoras onwards (600 B.C.), the "learned scientists" all knew it was round.

The "lesser mortals" took a little longer.

Simon K said:

Wrong way round Paul.

From Pythagoras onwards (600 B.C.), the "learned scientists" all knew it was round.

The "lesser mortals" took a little longer.

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Yes, the lesser mortals set up such non-user friendly outfits as the Spanish Inquisition, racking, ripping, burning and disembowelling in order to convince those in the know that they were so very wrong...

geoffmaynard said:

But he's still supporting them Mark - and so perhaps should every angler, for these reasons if not others

"I applaud Mark’s efforts and have gone on the record as supporting the aims - as far as our rivers are concerned anyway - as, in my opinion, anything which helps to highlight the state of our rivers, and in so doing has the potential to bring positive change, has to be a good thing. It is, perhaps, ‘doomed to fail’ as Paul Boote and others have suggested on the forum but when it is something as important as the future of our rivers I for one would sooner try and fail than not try at all..."

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He's supporting 'anything which highlights the state of our rivers', Geoff. So why aren't we campaigning on a 'Look at the state of our rivers' ticket? Not the 'Otters eat fish we like to catch' ticket?

At the core of river anglers' problems (and the desertion of them to man-made ponds ensures far too few anglers know what's going on) is fish recruitment; it is poor and this may have much to do with low summer levels, pollution, or many others causes. We need to demand the EA finds out what's going wrong, report back, and campaign to turn this around.

Maybe we need more nursery areas for fry, artificial channels to protect them during floods; maybe we need de-canalisation of rivers, creation of flood plains. Whatever it is, I'll join that campaign. Not the unwinnable one.

We should exactly be campaigning "look at the state of our rivers".
Don't get me wrong I'm as angry as the next man at the loss of the barbel and perch fishing I enjoyed at Kickles and the Claydon brook. The thing is though, wether the otters ate them (which they did) or wether they had lived for another year or so and died of old age there was not the number of back up fish to replace them.
We should be campaigning for research into why so many of our fish are not reproducing enough to self sustain their populations. Do we really want to start again every 10-15 years when the EA introduces fingerling barbel ect to replace the old fish that are now dying from old age or their numbers have fallen to such low figures due to predation. Most of us who choose to fish rivers over comercials do so because we want to fish in a natural environment, predation is natural. I have been lucky enough to fish on rivers all over the world, where the predators that the fish face are a lot bigger, uglier and more plentiful than the otter in our river systems. Where the locals rely on the fish population for protein and yet the fish are there is such numbers you wouldn't believe, why because they can reproduce successfully.
The EA have made a big song and dance that the otter is now in every county in the UK, holding this up as a sign that our rivers are health. We need to be making a big song and dance when the otter starts to disappear which it surely will in our failing rivers.
I also think that anglers and fishing clubs should be looking for the EA to provide habitat improvement instead of token stockings because if we are not careful all that will be happening is the otter population will be artifically fed, similar in effect to trout fed pike.
No matter what happens I think the river angler has got a bitter pill to swallow for the next few years but I feel if we play our cards right we could end up with a better, healthier river system in a decade or so's time.
All the best
Richard
- Home

richard bowler said:

We should exactly be campaigning "look at the state of our rivers".

We should be campaigning for research into why so many of our fish are not reproducing enough to self sustain their populations. Do we really want to start again every 10-15 years when the EA introduces fingerling barbel ect.

Most of us who choose to fish rivers over comercials do so because we want to fish in a natural environment, predation is natural.

The EA have made a big song and dance that the otter is now in every county in the UK, holding this up as a sign that our rivers are health. We need to be making a big song and dance when the otter starts to disappear which it surely will in our failing rivers.

I also think that anglers and fishing clubs should be looking for the EA to provide habitat improvement instead of token stockings

No matter what happens I think the river angler has got a bitter pill to swallow for the next few years but I feel if we play our cards right we could end up with a better, healthier river system in a decade or so's time.
All the best
Richard
- Home

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Well gents the answer is in our own hands

I'm not sure how many contributing to this thread are members of any of the groups that make up the ATr 'Specialist Angling Freshwater Group, which has a place on the ATr National Freshwater Committee, attend and are part of the Regional Freshwater Forums, or indeed a member of the ATr itself?

When the notice for the last SAFG meeting was sent out, which incidentally stressed that this would be a combined meeting with the Predation Action Group, the take up was abysmal with only two actually replying to the invite, I know I was one, I beleive the other was dear old Bob H; subsequently the meeting was cancelled and the 'Group' now communicates, when it does, via a closed google group.

As I say, the answer is in our own hands, but not by way of splinter groups. Use the ATr, the SAFG and the Regional Freshwater Forums, now funded by the EA as it sees these Regional Fora as the main conduit between the ordinary angler, via the ATr, and itself at national level.
Its taken some time for the ATr to recognise SA, so lets make use of it. I doubt we can rely on match anglers as they are only, in the most, interested in the cash side of 'angling' and are happy to fish in pigswill just as long as they can pick up the coin.

Whilst your pondering that and looking for something to occupy the time, have a look HERE

Simon K said:

Wrong way round Paul.

From Pythagoras onwards (600 B.C.), the "learned scientists" all knew it was round.

The "lesser mortals" took a little longer.

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But those who knew were not thought of as "learned scientists" at the time......they were ridiculed.

Just as those who see what is happening today.......


My own view is simple.........rivers are not in a state that can support otters and to incourage them in any way will simply not do them or us any good whatsoever.

The Yorkshire branch of the Institute of Fisheries Management (IFM) are organising a one-day seminar, with the EA's support, to examine the issues of predators in greater depth.
The IFM is a non-profit organisation controlled by members sharing a common interest in the modern management of recreational and commercial fisheries.
Topics for the day will be broadly organised into fish-eating birds, seals, otters and less acknowledged predators such as signal crayfish.
After each session there will be time for you to question the panel of presenters.
The venue is the conference centre at Goole Leisure Centre on Saturday 18 February 2012, between 09:00 and 17:00.
The IFM will be charging attendees a small fee (£10). Tea. coffee and a buffet lunch will be provided.
For more information contact the event organiser, Mike Lee careers@ifm.org.uk

Such seminars, to my mind, whether held by the IFM or the Game Conservancy (the Game v. The Verminous Rest outfit rebranded and renamed several years ago to become the more touchy-feely sounding, public friendly Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust), are mere sticking plasters on the self-inflicted near-terminal wound caused by long-term cavalier mistreatment of the wider natural environment and the terrible results that it has brought, mere exercises in closing the stabledoor after the horse has bolted, of treating a patient for acne or unsightly spots when he has smallpox...