The Infamous 'Match' vs 'Specimen' Contests

Dicky (Angling Trust PAC)

Dicky (Angling Trust PAC)

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I’m doing a bit of research and wondered if any of you could help?

I am interested in the famous match vs specimen matches involving initially Richard Walker and then repeated with John Wilson at a later date. I’ve looked all over the web and can’t find any info.

Does anyone know who the match competitors were, what years the contests were held, what were the venues/ rules etc? How close were the contests? Any details really.Cheers
 
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paul martin 7

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I remember reading about the Wilson one in the AT a few years back ****y, can't remember much detail though sorry. I think he won his by 2 to 1 if my memory serves me correctly.

Would be good if they did another.
 
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Fred Bonney

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****y,from Barrie Rickards book,no dates,or venues,but **** Walker fished against **** Sails on three occasions,once each on their venue of choice and one neutral.

Walker won two to one.
 
Mark Wintle

Mark Wintle

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Walker fished against Tom Sails who was a top match angler of the time. I think it had been the intention of Ken Sutton that Walker would fish the current National champion but in the event Sails stepped in. I think he was captain of Lincoln. The venues were the Bain, Witham and Royalty. Sails won on the Witham (7lbs to 2lbs?), Walker on the Bain (4lbs to 3lbs?), and finally Walker beat Sails on the Royalty wth two barbel and two chub for around 20lb to 11lbs of roach and dace. I used to have Ken Sutton's book 'Angling in the NEWS' and regret ever selling it as it has full details. The matches were basically two man contests. Walker and Sails became good friends as a result and the respect was mutual though Sails died young.

The rerun with Wilson was against **** Clegg on the same venues but spoilt by Wilson's knowledge of the Royalty when he had a big catch of bream which made it somewhat one-sided. Wilson also spoiled the contest by his post match bragging.

I don't think these matches proved much as they are never under match conditions, and of the venues only the Witham provided even close to comparable pegs.
 
Dicky (Angling Trust PAC)

Dicky (Angling Trust PAC)

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Thanks for the info Mark,

My interest is more in the 'spirit' of the events rather than what theymay or may not prove (amd let's face it two contests do not make a hypothesis!).

Kind regards,

****y
 
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teecee

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From a book by David Carl Forbes called Catch a Big Fish first published in 1967 -a series of chapters written by various top class fisherman of the day including Peter stone,Jim Gibbinson,Fred Taylor and the author.The first chapteris written by Richard Walker and gives details of his earlier life including aparagraph which basically states that he fished against Tom Sails the year after he caught his carp and following articles he wrote in AnglingTimes which also commenced publication in the same year.I think this makes it 1953.He also says he set out purposely to catch a Barbel during the match on the Hampshire Avon and did so with a fish of nearly 11lb.It seems the purpose of the match was to prove that specimen fish could be caught by design rather than chance-I rather think history proves his point!!Sorry I cannot quote directly from the book but copyright might still be in force and I don't want to upset anyone...I may well have other info on this but I will have to trawl through many books to find it-it may take some time.Hope this helps.
 
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paul martin 7

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The rerun with Wilson was against **** Clegg on the same venues but spoilt by Wilson's knowledge of the Royalty when he had a big catch of bream which made it somewhat one-sided. Wilson also spoiled the contest by his post match bragging.

Wilson won because he's a better angler than Clegg, no other reason.
 
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teecee

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****y,an addendum to my previous answer:I've had a quick look through my books and found copy of **** Walkers book 'NoNeed to Lie'recently reprinted by The Little Egret Press.Chapter 12 headed 'Newspapers'gives a full account of the events leading up to the match and full details of the match itself.It would seem they became great friends after the matches and remained so but I'm sure others could enlarge on this.

You may see from the above that I am,and always will bea follower of the Walker doctrine-it may sound strange but to this day I still miss his Angling Times contributions.In terms of fishing he,among others changed my outlook on fishing which has stayed with me for 40years soI hope this helps your cause!
 
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Ron 'The Hat' Clay AMIMechE (SA) MIFE (SA) (ACA)

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OK, here we are. It is a match I rember,ber quite clearly, even though I was only 11 at the time.

It was suggested by Ken Sutton a when reader of Ang;ing Times wrote in saying that any decent .atch angler could beat **** Wker on any venue. **** agreed it provided it was a friiendly affair.

First leg was fished on the Witham near Langrick and of ocurseSails won that by a fair margin. Second leg was won by Walker on the Bain but by a narrow margin.

Final leg was won by Walker on the Avon by a large margin, he caught a nice chub and a double figure barbel.

Of course it proved nowt, except to a few rhat Walker was a damn better angler than many gave him credit for.
 
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Chris Bishop

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I'm sure Angling Times would have details in their cuttings. Be interesting to have a re-run today.

Who would we pick to fish against who..?
 
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paul martin 7

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A team affair would be more exciting, for the Speci team what about Terry Lampard Martin Bowler and John Wilson versus 3 match boys. /forum/smilies/smile_smiley.gif
 
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Ron 'The Hat' Clay AMIMechE (SA) MIFE (SA) (ACA)

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Bob Nudd v Graham Marsden. Venues: River Nene Old Course, Grand Union Canal and the Tidal Trent.

No commercials!!!
 
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Ron 'The Hat' Clay AMIMechE (SA) MIFE (SA) (ACA)

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No, let's make it a bit of an all round competion to see who has the all-round skills.

Old Course of the Nene (It.s a home water to Bob Nudd), Rutland Water fished to international boat rules and the Grand Union!
 
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Trisantona

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As usual Mark Wintle (must spel name right) is spot on.....Wilson bragging after the second event ?, **** Clegg was bragging before the match ,"how much do you want me to win by"./forum/smilies/surprised_smiley.gif
 
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teecee

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Again from 'No Need to Lie'.....Following the letter from a reader saying Sails could beat the pants off Walker a chap called Ken Sutton(editor of Angling Times?)who was a died in the wool newspaperman and with an eye for a sustained drama(that sold newspers)plus he had new publication that needed to boost circulation so the matches were a godsend!

It was Sutton who almost forcast the results with the decider fished on the Royalty.In fact Walker says''he had never before fished that river and was worried ''.He fished with Bill Warren(of big roach fame)sitting next to him and hooked a big chub which at the net looked 6/7lb but eventually was lost.Then he had small barbel then the 10lb 12oz fish.

Walker says Tom Sails was one of the best sportsman he ever met and Sails realised afterwards that catching big fish is not accidental and that his skill was greater than Walkers.This skill had only been applied to catching small fish and now he wanted to apply it to catching big fish and would have done so had he not tragically died in an acident.

Apparently Ken Sutton's book'Angling in the News'also tells the story in more detail and from Ken's point of view.

What suprised me was that Walker had never fished The Hampshire Avon prior to the match so the result was amazing!(Sails,by the way had a roach of almost 2lb in his bag and the match was fished in November.Thats my lot on this subject!!!!
 
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Ron 'The Hat' Clay AMIMechE (SA) MIFE (SA) (ACA)

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A few years ago, Jim Baxter- editor of the Angling Star gave me the telehone number of an old member of Lincoln AA who was at the match on the Witham and Bain;I've forgotten his name.

The Walker Sails contest wasfished in the best of spirit. There was certainly no anamosity between the contestants and certainly no bragging. Both Walker and Sails were keen to learn from each other and close friendships were made. In fact after that, Walker and Fred J Tayor were invited regularly to fish in friendly matches on the Witham.

It was a great shame about Tom Sails tragic death in a motor accident shortly after the match. There is no doubt that Walker had set Tom off on a life of big fish hunting and that he would have caught many specimens if he had lived.
 
Dicky (Angling Trust PAC)

Dicky (Angling Trust PAC)

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Wow thanks for all the info chaps.

It would be very interesting to see a re-run, I'd like to see it fought out amongst the new generation of fisherman though, how about Bowler vs Raison?
 
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Evan NotMightyAtAll

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A re-run of what ? It's a complete nonsense, comparing Apples with Aardvarks.... they are just different things.

Having a specimen hunter trying to copy and outdo a matchman match fishing over four hours or so versus having the matchman spending the necessary six months research, stalking, planning, pre-baiting and plotting over endless hours on the bank to catch a specimen teaches us what exactly ? That matchmen have a chip on their shoulder about being called tiddler bashers ? or that specimen hunters used to catch a fish once or twice a year have an equivalent chip when ribbed about their lack of catching ability by matchmen.... and we didn't know all this already ?

What next, shall we compare match fishing with montaineering ? or painting ? or....... pick your idiotic and meaningless comparison.

The idea that you can always take two quite disparate things and 'compare' them to find a 'best' is a piece of completely stupid Aristotelian logic that should have been done away with over two thousand years ago.

What was more interesting and the real point of the exercise as I understood it was to show up the loudmouth matchmen who boasted that they could easily catch a specimen fish if they bothered to try and the equally stupid speci hunters who reckoned that any idiot could tiddler snatch for four hours with equivalent results. Stll doesn't teach us anything, but always entertaining to watch blowhards make fools of themselves...... as this forum so often demonstrates so succesfully !
 
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Fred Bonney

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/forum/smilies/big_smile_smiley.gif/forum/smilies/big_smile_smiley.gif

Too right,and eloquently put!
 
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