Negligent Idiots? Perhaps!

terry m · Mar 2, 2012

Whilst this season has been productive and successful when measured by fish put on the bank, a less encouraging trait has been apparent especially when pike fishing club stillwaters as opposed to rivers or syndicate waters.

The number of pike caught which have traces and rigs left in their gut following deephooking is worrying. I must have caught nearly 10 such fish this year and whilst I know that deephooking it always possible, I sometimes wonder what the striking strategy of some anglers is? On some of these fish I have managed to extract the hooks but some were just too far gone.

Is this a growing problem, is it education, tools or something else that is lacking?

Eric Edwards · Mar 2, 2012

It is probably not what you think. People rarely leave a trace in a fish because it's too deep to remove it, it's more likely that the pike has swallowed a baited trace that's been snapped/cracked off.

People have to get it into their head that when pike fishing, the concept of balanced tackle goes out of the window. Mainline of 12lbs bs and 20lb tracewire are just not strong enough, you have to go much heavier, particularly in snaggy waters. The weakest link in your tackle has to be the hook, and if you get snagged, the rest of the gear must be strong enough to open that hook out.

S-Kippy · Mar 2, 2012

I dont know but in my limited experience pike fishing still seems to attract more than its fair share of numpties ie peiople who dont really know what they are doing and aren't really properly equipped. As for striking strategies I doubt a lot of these people have given it a moments thought.

My predator fishing is exclusively on Bury Hill for zander. There are some very good predator anglers to be found there but some of the so called "pikers" there are woefully poor. Last trip I dredged up two traces that would not have been out of place on a conger trips....Bury Hill has been singles only for a couple of years at least yet these things [which were newish] were festooned with monstrous treble and on wire that would easily have doubled up as Zeppelin mooring cable.

I've not had either a zed or a pike with a trace down its throat there but I know other people who have. I fish small [very small] baits which means I have to hit my takes instantly and I've yet to deephook any fish.

What really gets me going is these people wandering about chatting to their mates leaving baits in the water because they've got a remote receiver.

beerweasel · Mar 2, 2012

I haven't come across this but if you do and cannot remove deep hooks, do the fish a favour and knock it on the head.
There are some good fishcake recipes on the net. :w

greeny1321 · Mar 2, 2012

I have only caught one with a trace in its mouth this season and I'm pretty sure it was idiots or uneducated kids at fault, looked to me like they had just cut the trace off for whatever reason but there was no mono or braid attached to the swivel at all

Luckily I managed to get it out and hopefully that fish will live to grow huge

It's worth mentioning that I've noticed alot (not all) of older anglers complaining about "stupid kids who dont know what they are doing" yet they don't even try to teach the kids anything when they see them on the bank. If I see kids pike fishing I always make a point of going over and giving them some pointers and if they need it showing them how to handle and unhook pike safely. If nobody ever tries to teach them how will they learn?

I bumped into a pair of young lads lure fishing early this season and when I asked if they had a proper trace they said "yeah mate nothing will bite through this - my dad says" when I looked they had a trace of what looked about 50lb mono, when I made them up a wire trace there and then, sorted them a nice new treble on thier spinner and explained to them what can happen if a pike is left with a lure in its mouth they seemed happy of the help and I've seen them again several times since - always using wire, now that they know.

barbelboi · Mar 2, 2012

It seem like pure ignorance. If a pike is deep hooked it is very easy to pull the stomach, gently, upwards until you see the hook/s use your forceps and the stomach will retract afterwards without damage to the fish.
Jerry

S-Kippy · Mar 3, 2012

barbelboi said:
It seem like pure ignorance. If a pike is deep hooked it is very easy to pull the stomach, gently, upwards until you see the hook/s use your forceps and the stomach will retract afterwards without damage to the fish.
Jerry

I've heard this Jerry but I wouldn't want to do it without having first seen somebody who knows what they are doing do it...and explain how to do it without harming the fish. Any numpty can haul on a trace when the hooks are out of sight but I doubt that would have a happy ending.

And I'm not suggesting deep hooking a pike just to show me ! Predator fishing is one area of the sport where I think the argument for some kind of course/test/whatever is strongest. A special predator endorsement on your licence perhaps ?

philblakey · Mar 3, 2012

I had a jack tonight with a hook/wire left in it, luckily it hadn't been swallowed (pic below).
I aways remove wires from pike where possible, 99% ?? can be removed safely.
Can't say i agree with knocking pike on the head if they're deep hooked and you're struggling to remove the hook/wire. Give them the benefit of the doubt & put them back, some do recover no doubt about that. Plus if someone else catches it, they may have more success removing the trace.

Phil.
PS. I once caught an 11lb pike before it came light, it had a wire trace in its throat. I really struggled to remove it on my own in the dark, gave up in the end and put it back.
A few days later my mate Bob caught it, i was with him, we then successfully removed the wire. This tale is also a good case for "not" cutting the trace back if it can't be removed, if it had been cut back chances are it wouldn't be visible to the next captor, so therefore no chance of it being removed.

marshman39 · Mar 3, 2012

Good bit of education there Greeney. Good to see it works I bet. I don't see too many people fishing where I fish only the odd guy on the opposite bank. Last week though there were some young lads using small spinners, obviously pike hunting but with no net, no visible cutters/pliers etc and I couldn't make out a trace either. They only stayed half hour and then went so hopefully they didn't do any damage. I did also see two grown men drag a pike up the bank, then stand on it while they unhooked it. They were also on the far bank too and a good distance away.

Apart from that, my bit of river has been pretty free from trouble so far. I've given it some hammer since July and not once have I caught a pike with a trace or hook still in it. I have found plenty of line about and the odd cheap trace but that's it.

---------- Post added at 15:46 ---------- Previous post was at 15:45 ----------

Phil, how the hell did they manage to get snapped off with that fish?

greeny1321 · Mar 3, 2012

The way I see it some people are idiots and dont care or want to learn the right way and theres nothing any of us can really do about that. I'll always offer a bit of help where I can even though I am not the most experienced pike angler myself. Most of the people I have tried to help have been glad of it and were just ignorant to the damage they can cause, there will always be a minority who are just not interested in the fishes welfare.

Back to the subject of kids and pike fishing, they are not all bad, theres a lad of about 14 who fishes one of the waters I do regularly and I once watched him handle a 12lb pike like a pro with no help from anybody which just shows that if they are given soem sound advice they will generally take it "stupid bloody kids shouldn't be pike fishing" helps nobody, least of all the pike.

Jeff Woodhouse · Mar 3, 2012

beerweasel said:
if you do and cannot remove deep hooks, do the fish a favour and knock it on the head.

Not really necessary.

Barry Rickards mentioned this in his (and Martin Gay's) book Pike. It is surprising how quickly a normal bronzed hook will rot away so long as it's not too thick in the wire. The further down it is, the more acids will rot it (and we've had proof of this last year with one chap testing the rotting process). Also, he'd caught fish that were in the process of digesting another fish and upon it's removal found a hook in its throat. So it's not necessarily curtains for the pike if a hook is left in its throat.

Maybe the answer is to use double hooks or even singles, as at Bury Hill. Accidents will happen and maybe one day the bottom hook will break off accidentally from the trace and there's nothing you can do about it. You can't cover all the options, but just remember it is a fish and they have an uncanny way of dealing with these things.

S-Kippy · Mar 3, 2012

Jeff Woodhouse said:
Maybe the answer is to use double hooks or even singles, as at Bury Hill.

Certainly [in my experience at Bury Hill] the single hook rule does seem to help fish welfare though the pikers there might not be so enthusiastic in terms of converting runs.I can understand that if you've only got two single hooks in a joey mackerel.

Small baits suit a single hook approach and fortunately that is the best way to target the Bury Hill zeds...but you must hit the takes quickly. When I first started fishing there I missed a lot of takes but I've worked out what to do when the bobbin goes now and I rarely lose fish either....only two this winter and one of those was a bloomin pike.

But I'd rather lose the odd fish than deep hook one though if I do at least I'm only looking for one barbless single.

waggy · Mar 3, 2012

Jeff Woodhouse said:
Not really necessary.

Barry Rickards mentioned this in his (and Martin Gay's) book Pike. It is surprising how quickly a normal bronzed hook will rot away so long as it's not too thick in the wire. The further down it is, the more acids will rot it (and we've had proof of this last year with one chap testing the rotting process). Also, he'd caught fish that were in the process of digesting another fish and upon it's removal found a hook in its throat. So it's not necessarily curtains for the pike if a hook is left in its throat.

Maybe the answer is to use double hooks or even singles, as at Bury Hill. Accidents will happen and maybe one day the bottom hook will break off accidentally from the trace and there's nothing you can do about it. You can't cover all the options, but just remember it is a fish and they have an uncanny way of dealing with these things.

Who was that, Jeff? I should be interested to compare notes with him following my own observations.

BarryC · Mar 3, 2012

Ime afraid we live in the world of instant anglers.
Nearly all waters I fish have a good number of the instant carper brigade fishing bolt rigs and wandering along the banks to chat to their mates. Generaly this does no great damage to carp having been automaticaly hooked middle of bottom lip.
So what do these guys do in the winter when carp are not so obliging.
Well they go to there local tackle shop, buy a couple of ready tied treble set ups then a couple of mackerel from Sainsburys and hey presto instant pikers.
When they get a take while chatting along the bank they are most unlikely to prevent deep hooking the fish and with a pair of six inch artery forceps they do'nt have a prayer of saving the fish.

terry m · Mar 3, 2012

Eric Edwards said:
It is probably not what you think. People rarely leave a trace in a fish because it's too deep to remove it, it's more likely that the pike has swallowed a baited trace that's been snapped/cracked off.

.

I am not convinced Eric. I have never noticed any evidence of crack offs - curly mono or frayed trace etc - also the length of remaining trace generally being long enough to protrude from the pikes mouth suggests to me that it has been cut.

As to the comments about knocking the fish on the head I have actually considered whether returning a small gut hooked jack may pose a risk to a much larger pike that may eat the Jack?

Jeff Woodhouse · Mar 3, 2012

waggy said:
Who was that, Jeff?

You mean who tested the rotting of hooks?

It was ...... mmmmmm..... lets see .... arrrrrrrrrr... YOU wasn't it?

Or at least you were testing them with sea water and fresh water etc. Stomach acids, as many of us pointed out, will rot metal even more quickly.

Remember -

waggy said:
Anyway; developments on the 2 batches of hooks , one in slightly acid tap water and the other in vinegar: The hooks in both were immersed at the end of October and until a week ago seemed none the worse for wear. This morning they're both showing apparently sudden signs of disintegration. The points and barbs have fallen off, the circles being the most affected and the shanks are now showing definite signs of pitting and thinning. The bigger sizes seem to be more affected than the small stuff.

waggy said:
Corrosion update:- Size 2, fine wire Sakuma Manta long shank J hook, in malt vinegar, turned to putty this week and disintegrated. Size 4 robust circle hook in same container that had lost point and barb is still intact otherwise. Size 6 fine wire eyed J hook in acidic tap water has lost point and barb completely.In same container, Size 13 fine wire Mustad that lost it's spade tabs at last report has lost its barb but not it's point. Also in same container, size 12 stainless Drennan wide gape eyed is still totally unaffected.

waggy said:
But, it's now 4 months since first hook immersions and several changes of malt vinegar or water later. Water samples:- Size 13 fine wire mustad has at last fallen apart to the touch. size12 Drennan, eyed, wide-gape, stainless, barbless: still intact but blunted and rusted at last. Malt vinegar sample:- Size 4 robust circle hook has broken in pieces to the touch. I seem to think that all hooks except the Drennan would have either rotted out of a fish's flesh by now (fate in stomach still open to speculation) or the fish would have died, depending on the site of hook insertion.

---------- Post added at 21:40 ---------- Previous post was at 21:25 ----------

Jeff Woodhouse said:
Maybe the answer is to use double hooks

These are what I meant -

Partridge CS1ST £5.99 for ten.

Just made up some traces for Frank to try out and he only uses one hook on the trace and lip hooks the dead bait.

Negligent Idiots? Perhaps!

terry m

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Eric Edwards

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S-Kippy

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greeny1321

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