salters drought spiel

so we've a serious drought in progress/on the way, depending on where you live, and anglings returned apostle, has waded in, sadly he's still unable to see through the sediments that have been disturbed
his expoundings of the need for compulsory water meters, the general publics waste of water in the home, the washing of cars and watering of lawns, are all to be looked at in an effort to solve this foreseeable problem

we've had privatised water companies for a generation, yet this problem and pollution persists, what were salter and his mp buddies doing about it while they were in power, nuffin, denada, zilch
the solution to the countrywide need for water, is to move it from where it is plentiful, to where it aint, using existing waterways, rivers/canals, this was discussed in the sixties,
but will rival corporations co-operate, no way is glamorgan water gonna do a deal with thames water, if only because all the water companies in between will want recompense/profit as well
hence salters standard corporation speel
water meters, another tax for something that falls from the sky for free
waste water in the home, it aint wasted, its returned to the system via the waste pipe, its only lost when its returned to the supplier, gotta be a good deal, selling summit that you get for free, then blaming those that use it for wasting it
the washing of cars, exactly the same as above, returned via the sewers
the watering of lawns and gardens, this has declined enormously due to the proliferation of paved drives and decking, salter quotes the figures when arguing for the thames tunnel/super sewer
the watering of lawns and gardens is essential to maintain the bio-diversity and gene pool that makes up our country
what business model in a capitalist world, rewards one company for allowing water to flow straight to the estuary, while 500 miles away another company is insisting on water use restrictions
if salters former work colleagues wanted to solve the problem, they'd look at the bigger picture and insist on water companies co-operating with one another, failing that they'd insist on the abstraction process being carried out nearer the estuaries
but hey the olympics look great
its a simple fix folks
use the existing canals/rivers to move the water from where its plentiful, to where it aint, investment required for pumps
relocate abstraction sites nearer to estuaries, investment required
but hey the olympics look great
the outcome waterways that are full of bio-diversity, rivers that flow, and gardens that are green, maybe even hydro-power
but hey the olympics look great

The farmers want a grid work of pipes put in place; I guess linking the rivers and canals as you say. I guess the water companies don't want to do this because it is expensive. However, they could start doing this a bit at a time over a long period. If this had been started in the 60's it could be solving the problem by now.

figured I'd throw a couple more statistics into the mix
keith arthur said on his radio program this weekend, that thames water lose 36% of their water through leaking pipes etc
so every 3 years they waste the next years water
but hey the olympics look good
on a bad year thames water allows up to 95 billion litres of untreated sewage, and storm water run of, into the river thames
but hey the olympics look good
and lets not forget the proposed thames tunnel/super sewer, they aint planning to collect all this sewage/storm run of, and treat it upriver where it could enter the river system again, oh no, they're gonna do it near the estuary
but hey the olympics look good

it aint a puzzle folks, that needs putting together, its a picture that needs looking at

Hi Mushroom

I believe that the current plans are to take the Thames tunnel from Acton to Abbey Mills. Then to join the Lee tunnel from Abbey Mills to Beckton (sewage treatment works) with further treatment works at Mogden, Crossness, Riverside and Long Reach. From what I've heard the budget wont stretch to additional works to treat upstream.

The main concern for what is proposed is that this will not eliminate CSO discharges completely - just reduce them from an average 60 a year to about four which satisfies the EA that this predicted discharge figure is acceptable.

Jerry

Sorry Jim, but your personal attacks on Martin Salter are becoming more than a little tedious and boring. He is the best hope we have of making the Angling Trust and of achieveing much more since he retired from Parliament than he did inside it. And much of what you suggest is impossible bordering on the ridiculous.

amushroom said:

waste water in the home, it aint wasted, its returned to the system via the waste pipe,.......selling summit that you get for free, then blaming those that use it for wasting it

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It costs a lots of money to purify water to the state where we can drink it straight from the tap. It also needs to be stored beforehand in reservoirs that we don't have enough of unless you're going to increase the amount of abstraction from hills and the glorious rivers that you seek to protect. Get real, water COSTS MONEY, it is not free.

amushroom said:

move it from where it is plentiful, to where it aint, using existing waterways, rivers/canals,

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Also an absurd idea. Many canal, if you study them, on their way south actually go uphill (Three Locks at Soulbury for example) and are fed from reservoirs (Tring) so that water can travel north, away from where we need it in the south. Even if it was all downhill, teh amount of water required would cause such a surge in the canals that boats could no longer navigate because the currents would be too strong. So what you suggest is a logistical impossibility unless you truck it around then think of the oil you'll burn.

amushroom said:

thames water lose 36% of their water through leaking pipes etc

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That is something of a fact although I believe the figure is more like 6,000,000 litres per day, whatever that works out at in percentage terms.

amushroom said:

the need for compulsory water meters, the general publics waste of water in the home,

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And he's right - and it needn't cost more. Any family having more rooms than people living in the house will probably save 50% or more on their water rates, we did. Having a meter does make people think more about their usage and watering gardens is a waste (I won't say washing cars because if done sensibly it needn't cost any more water than someone having a quick shower and providing it's not too often).

Have a rant by all means, but you are out of your depth here and are showing that you have little idea of what you're talking about. I just wonder what the Games have to do with it and why you need to keep up the personal attacks on Martin.

Whilst not being MS or the AT biggest fan, I'd agree with Jeff here.
And to suggest that gardens are rich in biodiversity is poppycock. Most gardens are toxic hell for insects beetles, slugs, mammals and manicured clean for mans eyes not natures, They're also full of non-native aliens that destroy the native biodiversity once they escape or are thrown out by their god creators.

The movement of water as you suggest will bring it's own problems regarding the local biodiversity of the receiving reservoirs, introducing non-native species to that environment/locality.

But we wouldn't have a water shortage problem

The bad one said:

They're also full of non-native aliens that destroy the native biodiversity once they escape or are thrown out by their god creators.

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Spot on. There was a prog on the BBC a few weeks ago where this lady was on a mission to convince councils to plant native species of flowers in their parks and kerbside gardens instead of the usual 'pretty' garbage. She did two gardens ina park and they asked the public which they thought was best, native or alien and would you believe it - the public prefered the native species.

And it got a big vote of confidence from the insects.

Saw it Jeff and well worth a watch. The woman laid out bare the threats to our once rich diversity of habitats and the consequences if it's not tackled ASAP.
Doing my bit and have been for nearly 20 years in our local park butting heads with Manchester City Council.
We now have somewhere in the region of 50 annual native species come up each year, some quite locally rare. Most of these have self-colonised and not aided or planted by man.

And from this month on the flowers start to come out for the next 3 months.
Man I love this time of year and look forward to it each year and to finding a new species to the park

The bad one said:

Man I love this time of year

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Me too. Best for me is when the beeches start to break bud, wonderful smell in the air. And the bluebells of course, but then you used to get loads of them in the dingle at Stamford park and in Cheethams Park. All teh birds were active this morning shouting out for a mate saying 'Get a load of this fine plumage girls." As they say, Spring is nature's saying "Let's party."

my reference to the olympic games, is because the wonga, technical skills and labour could have been used to improve our water problems, perversely these technical skills, wonga and labour have been wasted on a sporting event, something of no real great benefit for the many
bio diversity in gardens is important, lets not forget the house sparrow is on the red list, and while most gardens are chemically free of aphids etc, there are pockets which are not, water shortage is another straw on a stressed system
all the problems of supplying water could have an engineered solution, maybe more reservoirs where rainfall is plentiful, pumps to move it uphill, a nocturnal flow on canals, why aint government banging heads together
apologies for the perception that I have generated, regarding personal attacks, so let me please clarify, I have not cast any aspersions about table manners, personal hygiene or dress sense
I do however question an individual, who during his voluntary tenure as anglings voice in the house of commons, oversaw the increase in crays, cormorants, otters, fishing for the pot, water company pollutions, over abstraction, etc
that same individual, who is no longer in the house of commons, is now receiving a salary to campaign about these same issues
I'm pretty sure that one of anglings oldest gripes was that it needed to get government to listen more
so how do you do that from outside, when you couldn't do it from inside, what is it, you can now do, that you couldn't before

regarding our current water shortage, yesterday I was afloat on the thames, numerous gates were open on the weir, the flow could probably be described as walking pace along the reach
we aint got no water, yet its being run of on the thames, must be in the wrong place again, or perhaps thames water prefer to run their pumps on cheaper electricity, at night

amushroom said:

I do however question an individual, who during his voluntary tenure as anglings voice in the house of commons, oversaw the increase in crays, cormorants, otters, fishing for the pot, water company pollutions, over abstraction, etc

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How are you so sure he wasn't fighting these things? Going back several more years I can remember Tom Pendry (now Baron Pendry) fighting for many sporting issues that never came close to getting public attention. One was getting the Board of Trade to look at private charter boats taking out sea anglers and complying with regulations, which hitherto they didn't. Not everyone seeks public attention and publicity, but with some, it is thrust upon them. Now it's Martin's turn - hopefully.

amushroom said:

so how do you do that from outside, when you couldn't do it from inside, what is it, you can now do, that you couldn't before

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Quick history lesson, before we didn't have the Angling Trust, just a bunch of disparate groups of anglers all fighting to be king of the hill. Now we one. Here endeth the history lesson...

Not saying I disagree with you entirely on the games, I always said they would cost £15billion or more, but there is no way that money would ever have been spent on cleaning up rivers and improving water supplies, trust me...

About pumps, I couldn't say as our pumps and filtration expert is on holiday in South Africa right now. I think you'd need an awful lot of them and they would be BIG!

amushroom said:

all the problems of supplying water could have an engineered solution, maybe more reservoirs where rainfall is plentiful, pumps to move it uphill, a nocturnal flow on canals

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Of course tney can be solved, just take a look at what the Dutch do with Water Management - the problem being that they took 50 years to get to where they are today!

amushroom said:

all the problems of supplying water could have an engineered solution, maybe more reservoirs where rainfall is plentiful, pumps to move it uphill, a nocturnal flow on canals

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Ahh, so your solution is to engineer something that will invariably have a knock on effect somewhere else? Which particular area do you deem it acceptable to screw up in favour of the southern rivers? How about not using, or wasting, what you've already got in your own geographical area? It's not like the south of the country is suddenly akin to the Sahara desert.

amushroom said:

I do however question an individual, who during his voluntary tenure as anglings voice in the house of commons

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I had some more thoughts on this, Jim, but my wife's been using the computermabob so here it is.

When Martin was an MP he was primarily responsible to his constituents and that alone is a full time job for many MPs. The amount of correspondence they get through plus holding 'surgeries', usually on a Saturday morning, takes up a hell of a lot of their time. Last August Martin was telling me, just after he'd arrived back here from Australia, that apart from one week, the Australia trip was the first holiday/break/timeout he'd had in 30+ years. He wasn't looking for the sobbing hanky routine, but just explaining why he had not stood again at the last election, no private life whatsoever. But you know, some people expect more than blood, sweat and tears from MPs when that's all they have to offer. He's now employed for two days per week by the ATr, but he puts in a hell of a lot more time than that, I'll wager.

I have no wish to keep fighting Martin's quarter, I'm sure he could do it himself, but you'll have to excuse him as he doesn't have the time. I do it out of a sense of fair play and would suggest to you, give the guy a chance and let's see what he can do for us now.

What "he can do for us now" is to stop Thames Water from pumping S**t into the thames, oh i forgot that might conflict with his interests other than fishing.

jeff m8, I only raise the question that many of our current problems have grown during mr salters term as anglings voluntary representative in the house of commons, if his workload was such that he was fully busy with his constituents, then it is no wonder other considerations were overlooked, on the other hand, should he not have taken on such a workload, and has he repeated that mistake by working for the ATr and the countries biggest continual polluter, thames water
standing for parliament, surely is not having publicity thrust upon them, it comes with the job, the same as his two current positions
yes we've got the trust, and thank gawd for that, but when the campaigns manager announces on tight lines, that it was a bind that he had to find someone himself, to pay his wages, it smites of who you know, not what you've done
of course the olympic games money wouldn't have been spent on improving lives in britain, those that control such things are mr salters former colleagues, and parliaments track record means individual wealth is created in every generation, then cropped by the ruling elite, hence our current financial situation
sam, I aint in favour of screwing up any area m8, I aint got enough of a skill set to decide that, but with a few quid, I could employ someone to suss it out, or not as the case may be, the reason we're screwed for water is population, mr salters former colleagues are responsible for that
jeff, as I have stated on another thread, I believe mr salter has the skill set, and being made aware of his workload/30 years without a break, I now understand more clearly why it seems to myself that he failed to temper many of anglings current problems, while they were still in their infancy
I applaud your rallying to his side, pukka m8, but assumed he would be use to some cross questioning/opposition, its welcomed by our parliament
what would your opinion be on controlling cormorants, in a way similar to what the EA does with canadian geese, oiling their eggs, I think, but dont quote me, that cormorants nest together, either in trees or on cliffs, ok, access would be right grief, but you'd be guranteed an eventual decline

amushroom said:

sam, I aint in favour of screwing up any area m8, I aint got enough of a skill set to decide that, but with a few quid, I could employ someone to suss it out, or not as the case may be, the reason we're screwed for water is population, mr salters former colleagues are responsible for that

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Any solution that involves simply taking water from elsewhere is going to have an effect. The only real option is to reduce water consumption/waste in the areas concerned. If that isn't enough, because rainfall really is so drastically low, then you are going to have to accept that your rivers are screwed.

Pull up the ladder, im alright Jack.

Mushroom - re: CSO discharges, at the end of the day, it looks like there’s every chance of Thames Water commencing work on the Thames Tunnel next year with an estimated completion date of 2020. At least things appear to be moving in the right direction (apart from a bit of protest from some on the West London brigade that don’t want it passing through their Manor) and if it cuts down an average 60 discharges a year to an estimate four, or less, at least that’s a step in the right direction.
Jerry
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