Blue green algae and invertebrates

matthew barter

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I was wondering what effects other people had noticed on waters after a blue green algae bloom?

Do the same toxins that kill fish kill the insect life?

If so, how quickly do they recover?
 

Jeff Woodhouse

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I'm not so sure that the blue green algae does kill fish directly, more likely through a lack of disolved oxygen, but our Environmental Correspondent, The Bad One, may well come in on this with an experts view.

Hence this will bump it to the top again for his attention.... ;)
 

dnahacker

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Cyanobacteria (blue-green algae) produce a plethora of toxins collectively known as cyanotoxins, these toxins include potent neurotoxins, hepatotoxins, cytotoxins, and endotoxins. they are usually cyclic peptides such as microcystins and nodularins or alkaloids such as Cylindrospermopsins, Saxitoxins and Anatoxin-a. Many cyanotoxids will bio-accumulate and will definately kill inversts and fish.

Inverts are used as "sentinal " organisms, when kick sampling is carried out we are looking for both abundance AND diversity... in terms of a river environment plecoptera are the most sensitive (stone and needle flies) then ephemoptera (upwing may flies), then trichoptera (caddis) finally gammarus (shrimp) (clearly this is a simplification) a healthy river environ will have good numbers of all species, as water quality declines the diversity of the sample population is reduced (not necessarily the abundance) the cause of these changes can be pollution or they can be a naturally occuring toxin such as a cyanotoxin

Blooms are most often attributed to hypertropication, the addition of nitrate and phosphate to a body of water, usually from fertilizer run off or sewage leaks. hypoxic conditions generally accompany an cyanobacteria bloom
 
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dnahacker

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As opposed to what... dinoflagellates? prymnesium ?..

i suppose we could clone 16s ribosomal RNA genes then sequence the resulting transformants , BLAST search and make a difinative identification that way...

I dont really understand the point you are trying to get at, the question was about "blue green algae" which is a nonsense to start with, they are gram negative bacteria beloning to phylum 5, cyanobacteria are morphologically a heterogeneous mixture of bacteria. They come in five different types. Firstly they are either unicellular or filamentous. Unicellular species come in two forms depending on whether they divide by binary fission or multiple fission, the latter tending to be colonial. The filamentous forms are either branching or non-branching. The non-branching types are again divided into two groups depending on the presence or absence of special nitrogen fixing heterocysts.

whether or not they "ARE" BGA or not is nonsensical as the question was specifically pertaining to the physiological and toxicological properties of BGA.
 

Jeff Woodhouse

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I was right discombobulated 'til I read that.

Tell you what though, that isn't Ron posting under another name, I bet. ;):) This man knows his stuff.

Only way I was told to tell if it is cyanowhatsaname is to look at the stones or edges of the lakes, if it looks like they've been painted with emulsion it's agood chance there's BGA in the water. Is that right?
 
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The bad one

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As opposed to what... dinoflagellates? prymnesium ?..

i suppose we could clone 16s ribosomal RNA genes then sequence the resulting transformants , BLAST search and make a difinative identification that way...

I dont really understand the point you are trying to get at, the question was about "blue green algae" which is a nonsense to start with, they are gram negative bacteria beloning to phylum 5, cyanobacteria are morphologically a heterogeneous mixture of bacteria. They come in five different types. Firstly they are either unicellular or filamentous. Unicellular species come in two forms depending on whether they divide by binary fission or multiple fission, the latter tending to be colonial. The filamentous forms are either branching or non-branching. The non-branching types are again divided into two groups depending on the presence or absence of special nitrogen fixing heterocysts.

whether or not they "ARE" BGA or not is nonsensical as the question was specifically pertaining to the physiological and toxicological properties of BGA.

You have answered the question I was getting at ;)
When reading questions from Anglers on website of a scientific nature, it's best not to take the question to literally. They tend to use words that are current in the media correctly or incorrectly. Hence my flippant posed question to the post.

So to the original poster of the question was the algae you referred positively identified by professionals as BGA? Or was it suggested to you by others or yourself that it was without that identification?
 

matthew barter

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Thanks for the replies.

I had strong feelings on what was wrong when I first turned up but it was independently verified by a professional. I didn't take any samples or do any of my own tests at the time. I do often carry a few spare universals for collecting samples(I have microscopes and stains at work) and I also like to do the odd dip stick test on water just out of interest. I never note this down but I keep thinking that I should.

The water concerned is a spring fed artificial lake(dug in the past thirty years using machines). It feeds a tiny chalk stream that flows for about a mile before it enters the sea. It had good hatches of upwinged flies and when you looked in the shallows in the summer you could see masses of all sorts of invertebrates.

Has any one had this happen or does any one know how this is going to effect the population dynamics of the invertebrates.

Thanks Matthew.
 
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dnahacker

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it is impossible to say as you dont have any entomological data from the past, you could speculate that the ephemoptera would be the most dramatically effected as they are likely to be the most sensitive group you have there but without historical data on population density and species diversity it is just that... speculation
 

matthew barter

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True enough, I would also have speculated the mayflies would have been the most effected.

We also had some decent bloodworm beds, if you have had any experience or have done any research on this I would be gratefull of any replies.

As we are all worried about water levels this year the lake is going to be managed differently. This means that even comparing catch reports with the associated fly pattern won't tell me much. Never mind.

Thanks for your replies, Matthew.
 
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