What Happens Beneath the Surface?

cg74 · Mar 30, 2012

I pose this question as I don't believe there is a definitive answer, so it's purely speculative opinions.

These were posted earlier today on another thread:

the wise one said:
I've always found barbless hooks to cause more damage to soft mouthed fish like Tench, than Barbed.
From my observations, the barbless hooks tend to twist and move, which 'cuts' rather then holds in one spot like a Barbed, T.W.O

Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC) said:
How? The force applied to a hook is the same and in the same direction whether it's barbed or barbless.

barbelboi said:
Surely there is more movement with a barbless, with a barbed/micro barbed hook all movement stops at the barb. With a barbless hook movement can continue as far as the point where the fish may be lost.
Jerry

Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC) said:
A barb stops a hook slipping out when it is not being pulled into the fish by the FORCE exerted on it via the line.

Are barb does not prevent the hook waggling side to side.

cg74 said:
are you certain of that?

Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC) said:
Yes, my education gave me a basic understanding of physics (no where near as advanced as Ron's of coarse, just enough to get me a degree in mechanical engineering and an engineering company) and the principles of force, pressure, stress, strain, statics, dynamics,kinetics, etc.

My opinion starts by stating; seldom does physics show any true worth in nature, take the old adage that according to the laws of physics, a Bumblebee's aerodynamics are such that it can't possibly fly, yet it does!

So to base an opinion solely on the principles of physics is as flawed as is possible; another plausible variable, maybe the barb irritates the fish's mouth, leading to involuntary muscle spasms, thus changing the forces involved..... Altering everything.

All opinions welcome.

sam vimes · Mar 30, 2012

I'm a fair way to being convinced that barbless hooks do more damage during the fight. My suspicion being that the theory about them bouncing and shifting slightly leaving multiple puncture points, could have something in it. However, barbed hooks invariably cause more damage when removed, particularly in the hands of the inexperienced or uncaring. Even barbless hooks can cause damage on removal in the hands of a neanderthal.

Fred Bonney · Mar 30, 2012

I have never seen damage caused by use of barbless hooks, they go in in one place and stay tight until the pressure exerted is released.
Very often they fall out in the landing net.
Poor angling may cause the hook to release, but the chances of it going back into the fish for a re-hook, I somewhat doubt!
Keep the pressure on and the hook stays where it is
I have seen many cases of misuse of barbed hooks, primarily due to the catcher pulling and tugging to get them out.

sam vimes · Mar 30, 2012

Fred,
is it safe to assume that you never set foot in those dreadful commercials that you hate so much? If you were to do so you might just see the worst examples of mouth damage that you are ever likely to see. Strange when you consider that barbed hooks are invariably banned and, generally, out and out carp tactics are just not used. Bearing in mind that the so-called skull dragging with heavy carp rods, that a few on here rave about, doesn't happen because of this. What do you attribute the excessive damage to?

Interesting to note that a few proper (big fish) carp waters are actually banning barbless hooks now. They seem convinced that barbeless hooks cause more damage.

Dicky (Angling Trust PAC) · Mar 30, 2012

sam vimes said:
Fred,
is it safe to assume that you never set foot in those dreadful commercials that you hate so much? If you were to do so you might just see the worst examples of mouth damage that you are ever likely to see.

Interesting to note that a few proper (big fish) carp waters are actually banning barbless hooks now. They seem convinced that barbeless hooks cause more damage.

Fred,

Sam is spot-on in his observation...

In my experience the damage caused by barbless can be brutal, and it tends to be caused by inexperienced anglers waving their rod all over the shop during the fight rather than just keeping the rod low to the water in one position and playing the fish....

IMO the damage is caused by constantly changing the angle of the rod when it is un-necessary... I once helped a chap unhook a fish after the scenario described above and the hook had actually revolved three times leaving the fish both hooked and lassoed by the hooklength...

Un-hooking a barbed/micro-barb on the other hand,when done correctly, creates very little stress or tissue damage...

geoffmaynard · Mar 30, 2012

I think you will find it's the angler, not the hook which is at fault. Both barbed and barbless have their place but neither are harmless in the hands of a poor angler. There are as many fisheries banning barbed as barbless around here - they would do better to ban some anglers

sam vimes · Mar 30, 2012

geoffmaynard said:
I think you will find it's the angler, not the hook which is at fault. Both barbed and barbless have their place but neither are harmless in the hands of a poor angler. There are as many fisheries banning barbed as barbless around here - they would do better to ban some anglers

There's no doubting that bad anglers and angling is the biggest issue. I'd agree that barbless only fisheries are far more common and has been the case since the start of the commercial fishery boom. It was simply an interesting aside that a few big carp waters had reversed that thinking and banned barbless hooks.

barbelboi · Mar 30, 2012

RMC/CEMEX banned barbless hooks for many of the years that I was a member.
I believe it was for size 14 or larger.
Jerry
PS Personal opinion - I believe that micro barbed is the way to go - just educate the d*******s how to unhook a fish.

peter crabtree · Mar 30, 2012

This topic must be a close runner as one of the most chewed over subjects
on the forums and angling press, along with the close season and rig safety for what seems an eternity.
I was hoping when I read the thread title that it may be something new and original but no, same old same old which will inevitably lead to " I know better than you sh1te .

sam vimes · Mar 30, 2012

peter crabtree said:
will inevitably lead to " I know better than you sh1te .

It hasn't so far, so it's a start!

chav professor · Mar 30, 2012

I don't really think much about it other than I feel more confident using barbed hooks for most species......... I do use barbless or semi barbed for predator fishing (including perch). Other than that a lot of stuff spouted as fact regarding hooks and damage is purely subjective.

Sticking hooks in a fishes mouth causes damage, however minor and I have kind of got used to the idea. Causing minimal damage is obviously considered.

Simon K · Mar 30, 2012

I seem to remember Ian W writing some years back, either on RMC or in the angling press, of tests undertaken with barbed vs barbless hooks.

The conclusion was that barbless do move around during the playing of fish (particularly bigger hooks/fish) and relocate themselves leading to greater mouth damage. They penetrate further without the barb.
Hence, as Jerry says, RMC banned larger barbless sizes.

I'll see if I can dig out the piece in the archives. (but don't hold your breath.

)

barbelboi · Mar 30, 2012

peter crabtree said:
This topic must be a close runner as one of the most chewed over subjects
on the forums and angling press, along with the close season and rig safety for what seems an eternity.
I was hoping when I read the thread title that it may be something new and original but no, same old same old which will inevitably lead to " I know better than you sh1te .

Yep, I was hoping for a Hugh Miles video, or one of Danny's latest:wh
Jerry

Titus · Mar 30, 2012

Barbed, micro barbed or barbless? I know which one I would rather have to remove from my own flesh...........But I'm not a fish.

How do you do smilies on here?

peter crabtree · Mar 30, 2012

Smilies are only a way of implying you are not answering in a hostile manner
when you know you really are.....

barbelboi · Mar 30, 2012

Titus said:
Barbed, micro barbed or barbless? I know which one I would rather have to remove from my own flesh...........But I'm not a fish.

How do you do smilies on here?

Yep, you're a few million years too late and not involved in the fight (insert smilie here)

Jerry

Titus · Mar 30, 2012

peter crabtree said:
Smilies are only a way of implying you are not answering in a hostile manner
when you know you really are.....

Funny how we always judge others by our own standards, especially it it involves seeing the worst in them.
What I really wanted was a winking face to imply that I was well aware of the physiological difference between my nervous system and that of a fish.

dangermouse · Mar 30, 2012

Titus said:
How do you do smilies on here?

Hit "post reply" and there should be a menu on the right. :thumbs:

Titus · Mar 30, 2012

http://www.fishingmagic.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gifNope, nothing there.

Alan Tyler · Mar 31, 2012

Hit "Go Advanced" and the full panoply of hi-tech yarbles is revealed.
Some would prefer it labelled "Go Retarded", but there are some arch little cusses about. Wink blush smirk.

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