Waggler v Stickfloat

I mustconfess that I am an out and outstickfloat angler on rivers and usually only fish the waggleron still waters, but since fishing the mighty Trent, the stickfloat is excellent for close-in fishing but not so if you want to fish further out tripping the bait just off the bottom in deeper water.I think this is where a slidding waggler would be of more use. And no, I don't want to fish the feeder instead!

The only concerns I have, are: Will the sliddingwaggler ride the waves okin the turbulent waters of the fast flowing Trent and how will it affect the presentation of the bait.

Rummaging through some of my old floats, I've discovered an unused 'slidding stickfloat' with an eye at the base and another whipped near the top. Does anybody still use these?

I think it's going to be anexperiment between using the sliddingwaggler and the slidding stick for fishing at distance in fastflowing waters, to see which casts the better and which one provides the better presentation.

Any views on the pros and cons of when to use the waggler or stickfloat?

I can't see the advantage of a sliding waggler in a fast river but I can see the advantages of wagglers; you do get advantages of distance, beating the wind, and different presentation. I've used the waggler for 30 years on waters from the Trent (Hazelford -deep/slow, Gunthorpe - shallow/medium and Shelford - shallow/medium), the Nene, Thames, Wye, Hants Avon Dorset Stour and Frome, Bristol Avon. Don't be afraid of using foot long thick lengths of peacock. The style is very different to the perfection of the stick but equally deadly once you relax and make it work. Fishing as deep as 14ft with a fixed waggler is easy as long as you accept you need at least 2SSG as locking, possibly with a little bunch of no. 4 down plus droppers.

In my match fishing days we'd set up both stick and waggler, sometimes more than one of each and experiment with each as well as rest a line. Watching the top match anglers on the Trent twenty to thirty years ago (Ashurst, Marks, Palmer, Dean etc) showed me how it should be done. After that it's practice and experiment all the way. It pays to make your own floats, that way you understand what you are trying to achieve. My bible was always, and still is, Kevin Ashurst - World Class Match Fishingwhich covers the Trent very well. It is a shame you will not get a chance to watch Kevin in action on the Trent as I did in 1977 as it would answer all your questions. My trotting series covers some of the river waggler technique - see home page at bottom.

Steve.....is the sliding "stickfloat" you found def a stick or could it be a balsa..........i can't think which one but one of the midland match lads used big sliding balsas to good effect on the lower Severn.........ring anybells Mark?

I went through a stage of using sliders a few years back.....in the right situation they can be deadly........i copied the matchman in question in swims over 15ft and caught well........i could fish at depth and hold the top and bottom fixed slider back hard, the bait then (hopefully) went through at the pace of the lower water levels.........a bottom fixed slider would have dragged it through at the speed of the upper levels.

had some great catches of bream and roach at 22ft on stillwaters with botom fixed floats tho!

Thanks for the info Mark. It must have been quite an education to see the likes of Ashurst, Marks, Palmer, Dean etc in action. Unfortunately in the few matches that are held on the river these days it is rare to see anybody fishing the waggler at distance. Thinking about it, I can't remember seeing anyone fishing a large waggler, seems like a forgotten art.

You say fishing as deep as 14ft with a fixed waggler is easy.... Don't you find casting with the float set at this depth difficult, especially if your using a 13ft match rod and a steep bank behind you?

Paul, It might have been a balsa, I'll have to dig it out and check. I know it dates back to the 70's though.

Steve,

To fish that deep you do a sort of roll cast with the rod held forwards and some line including the bait in the water, then with the float about four feet below the tip you roll out the floa and it picks the line from the water. You may need more than 2 SSG though! Ivan Marks reckoned on being able to fish up to 20 ft deep like this but then you're talking Ivan Marks!!I drew such a swim on the Witham in a National, fished it at 14ft with a very steep bank behind me and used a 7AAA float to cast. But one of my local Dorset waters is a clay pit that is up to 25ft with trees so casting floats set deep in limited spaces comes with the territory.

I suspect Billy Lane had something to do with sliding balsas.

Mark.........you completed the circuit!

It was Billy.........10yrs ago i would have rattled that off!.................they did work a treat if used in the right situation.

Tho i suspect that me using it from a boat would possibly make it easier? /forum/smilies/wink_smiley.gif

Thinking about this is really getting the old grey matter going!..........i had to fish real heavy bunched leads to make it work with top and bottom balsa's.

Good post Steve......but one i suspect a lot will be to wary to post on, a bit like the "tip" thread. /forum/smilies/wink_smiley.gif

The main difference between a stick and waggler is the speed at which the bait moves through the swim. There are times when they want the bait presented slowly so a stick is the better option but when they want the bait running at them then the waggler outscores the stick.

Nearly all matchmen used to set up both and I have had occasions where I have been catching steadily with a stick and the swim has suddenly dried up, a switch to the waggler has brought the bites again. Maybe its something to do with the amount of fish in the swim I don't know but it was a wise angler that set up both methods.

Can't say I have ever heard of a sliding stick float though I have on rare occasions used a slider but I only found them effective on slow moving water. Was it Billy Lane who always used a slider in depths of 6ft or more?

Paul,

It was a balsa float. Looking back thru some of the older posts, there's a drawing of the exact float on an earlier threadon Slider Float Fishing by Baz

http://www.fishingcompanion.co.uk/tackle-files/afloatslide.html

Was this the type that Billy Lane used?

Mark,

Good point on using a type of roll cast to fish a fixed waggler at that depth and at distance.

20ft!!!.... I'll pass on that one for the time being.

hiya steve ...

like yourself i am a " float only " angler , much to my cost in the 70s / 80s when i would get battered by the " flying pig " ....just started fishing again after a break of around 10 years and had not realised how the matches on the trent/derwent had declined ...but , after putting the word out i found i could still find the odd match by joining such as derby railway a.c who have some lovely waters to fish, still run matches too , tho i am a bit rusty and invariably get outfished by some pretty good trent men ...good fun tho .

in regard to your query ref fishing the waggler at distance , the sliding waggler i have caught with some years ago when fishing at long eaton , the river was very deep in the middle full of skimmers that the feeder men caught loads of , it must have been 20ft deep in the middle but by fishing heavy enough , with a float capable of taking around 5 swan shot you could get to them ...fishing around 2 of those swan shot around 4ft from the hook to get the hook bait down fast , i was never good enough to use it to take the feeder boys on but i did make it work to put a few in the net .....

as regards fishing the " rolling cast " it's o.k getting the float out to the swim...the difficult bit is netting any fish when you have more depth then length of rod ...you need 15ft arms ...

john dean was my hero when he was winning everything , got well and truly " battered " by that chap more than once ...he was poetry in motion ...bloody lost one of his black sticks the other week when i got smashed by a big fish ..barbel i think ....i was only fishing light on the derwent down the side, picking up the odd perch when i hooked into the bottom , or so it felt ,that suddenly took off like a train to the other side straight into the far bank roots ...lost the lot .

all the best...............dave s.

The John Dean stickfloat, now your talking, a classic float Dave and one of my all time favourites. I'm now down to my last couple of wire stem versions, they're looking a bit battle worn, but are still my first choice out of my tackle box. Brilliant floats for trotting and bait presentation, especially on smaller rivers and close-in work. they also land on the water with hardly a splash, so not spooking the fish if the water is shallow or clear.

Graham, when you talk about switching to the waggler to change the speed of the bait traveling...would you also fish with the waggler at a closer stick float range?

Regards, Deanos.

Deanos, there is no hard and fast rule about how near or far you can fish a waggler but yesit is generally fished further out than a stick, anywhere from two rod lengths out is fineand there are better alternatives for close in fishing where there is usually very little flow. Yes I have fished down the stick line many times but its worth remembering that I would fish a stick well out as well as close in and if you are feeding three lines its no use switching to an unfed line that would be non productive.

I have fished a stick four, five even more rod lengths out using the overhead cast method but my eyes ain't as good as they were and I have difficulty following a stick at that range these days. The old adage 'it ain't no use fishing where the fish ain't' is one worth remembering and its no use fishing an inside line if the fish are two thirds across the river, it might look pretty but it won't catch you many fish.

Steve......the balsa's i had a dabble with had a more bulbous top.....very similiar to the big topped sticks we have today....i may be wrong but i think they were based on the Billy Lane models.

great thread you have started.

Graham, that old adage is spot on, nice one mate.

You can slow a waggler by dragging some line and shot on the bottom. Much harder but possible is slowing the waggler down by very skilfully holding back - you need a thick tipped float with plenty showing- the Trent maestros likes Johhny Rolfe had this down to a fine art. I have to say that I've always been in awe of the top Trent anglers of the 70s and 80s era; I wish I had half their skill. The only scalp I managed was Jan Porter 9lb to 10oz though not on the Trent - I think he's forgiven me!

As this is a thread disscusing the merits of both waggler and stick, I hope the next question falls within the same area. My fishing is mainly on small, shallow rivers, often pacy swims,often 3ft orslightly less in depth, are there any threads that might help me out with float fishing REALLY shallow water (grayling this time of year).

I do seem to recall Mark posting a thread or artical on this subject a while back.

The top boys are on this thread...so lets be havin yer!/forum/smilies/big_smile_smiley.gif

Deanos,

The float I have used the last couple of seasons in shallow swims for grayling is the Drennan loaded puddle chucker with a couple of no 4s down the line.It has a fairly thick tip so holds up well in the faster water. It makes less of a commotion than a top and bottom float when striking.Its only a couple of inches tall so suits 3ft and much shallower swims perfectly.I usually attach it between a couple of the drennan float stops.

Thank you Nigel, with this float would you "trip" the bottom of the swim, or fish slightly off...and work in the same way as a stick float. This is good advice for me as I struggle with shallow swims. I also get a bit hung up about using only small shot for a pattern, so I like the idea of no4s...again, would you use them as a small bulk or reasonably strung out (say one per foot?).

Many thanks.

Drennan loafer Deanos

It can be fished double rubber style or bottom only to stop tangles in shallow water.

Deanos,

You would not be able to hold the float back Deanos as its bottom end only.You have to really let it go wit the flow.Depending on the swim you could drag a little bit of line on the bottom to slow it down but to be honest I generally dont worry about being dead depth when grayling fishing as they generally feed by coming up off the bottom to feed.

As to shotting, it would depend on the depth but say the swim was 3 foot deep I would space the shot out evenly say a no 4 every eight inches.If it was shallower, and you can fish this float in swims only inches deep, then bulk all the shot under the float and just have one dropper nearer the hook.

If the fish wanted a slowed down bait then I would go for a top and bottom float like the drennan loafer Mike suggests.The smallest is 1 swan and in shallow swimsI would again put the bulk directly under the float and a dropper down the line.I suspect if it was fished bottom end only it would have much the same characteristics as a chucker.

I was on the Test on saturday and used both floats in the same swim with the chucker outfishing the loafer as the fish seemed to want a bait at the pace of the current.

Hope this helps.