Deep water roach and rudd?

sam vimes · May 17, 2012

I'm currently fishing a fairly big (30 acres), deep (down to 30ft averaging around 15ft), gravel pit. There isn't much in the way of shallow margins or underwater features. It's a little out of my comfort zone fishing a water as deep. We know that it's home to carp, tench, bream, pike, perch and the odd chub. We've also had the odd small roach and rudd. The only thing that shows up fairly regularly are the carp and, in previous years, perch. The pike are fairly evident, though I don't fish for them.

The roach and rudd are caught very infrequently. I've managed eight rudd at around 12oz or so in one session in three years of fishing the place. I've never caught a roach. We know that there are bigger examples in there as the odd one or two well over a pound have washed up dead. We also have good numbers of yearling fry show up every spring. This year is no exception, I netted some roach fry from the margins myself a couple of weeks ago. We've also occasionally seen large shoals of what we suspect to be rudd and/or roach.

The suspicion is that the roach and rudd usually sit beyond float range. However, they may well be sitting mid-water so a leger might be up to around 25ft below them, depending on the depth of water. Try as I might, I can't, with that one exception, catch the roach and rudd. Despite usually fishing maggots, in the hope of picking up anything that swims, it's only the carp that show.

Has anyone got any suggestions as to how these awkward fish might be caught?

chub_on_the_block · May 17, 2012

Locating them is important, especially in a water that size. This time of the year they could still be shoaling around the edge for spawning. Areas with tree roots or vegetation etc.

Philip · May 17, 2012

I fished a water that sounds similar a few years ago and caught Roach feeder fishing maggots close to a very sharp underwater drop off.

However you could try..

Making a best guess on location then fish a Waggler and lots of maggots...fish a slowly falling bait as deep as you can and spray lots of maggots over the top continually until you start to get bites then judge from there.

Alternatively prebait with seeds (something like pigeon mix) close in for a few days then fish it with maggots/Corn/bread and see what turns up. If the bait attracts the bream and Carp chances are the Roach will find it too then you wade through numbers till you catch a Roach.

dangermouse · May 17, 2012

Floating feeder? Don`t really know much about the method but it seems likely it would give you the range you need and you could use a long hook length to give you a bit of depth.

jasonbean1 · May 17, 2012

if you have a pole fish the margins, plumb up and fish at 6-8ft max...if its a clear lake just maggot/caster...if it has colour a bit of groundbait.

chances are if they are in there in catchable numbers you'll have to move around the lake alot to find them, i wouldnt bother trying tip fishing for them or up in the water.....lived in ireland for many years and the roach and rudd just dont like deep water and will stay in the margins even if its sloping sharply, once you go past 12- 15 ft they just wont be there.

good luck!

mick b · May 18, 2012

I agree with Jason.
Many years ago I fished a similar 'lake' and the angler who caught the most roach, rudd and tench used a pole to fish down the steep marginal shelf.
He told me that the reason why the pole was better than a running line was because the strike with a pole was straight up and immediately into the fish.
He also fished a bristle float shotted right down and not the 5SSG wagglers almost everyone else used.

Hope this helps.

guest61 · May 18, 2012

sam vimes said:
I'm currently fishing a fairly big (30 acres), deep (down to 30ft averaging around 15ft), gravel pit. There isn't much in the way of shallow margins or underwater features. It's a little out of my comfort zone fishing a water as deep. We know that it's home to carp, tench, bream, pike, perch and the odd chub. We've also had the odd small roach and rudd. The only thing that shows up fairly regularly are the carp and, in previous years, perch. The pike are fairly evident, though I don't fish for them.

The roach and rudd are caught very infrequently. I've managed eight rudd at around 12oz or so in one session in three years of fishing the place. I've never caught a roach. We know that there are bigger examples in there as the odd one or two well over a pound have washed up dead. We also have good numbers of yearling fry show up every spring. This year is no exception, I netted some roach fry from the margins myself a couple of weeks ago. We've also occasionally seen large shoals of what we suspect to be rudd and/or roach.

The suspicion is that the roach and rudd usually sit beyond float range. However, they may well be sitting mid-water so a leger might be up to around 25ft below them, depending on the depth of water. Try as I might, I can't, with that one exception, catch the roach and rudd. Despite usually fishing maggots, in the hope of picking up anything that swims, it's only the carp that show.

Has anyone got any suggestions as to how these awkward fish might be caught?

Two methods spring to mind..

1 - The 'dink dink' rig. The Complete Book Of Legering (Revised) Chapter 7 - The Dink Dink | Bob Roberts - Fishing information for the complete angler

2 - Hemp and Tares fished up in the water with a steady tickle of bait on top of a waggler / pole set up.

I've had success with both - but in running water.

MAB

peter crabtree · May 18, 2012

have to agree, a stiff and responsive pole will outfish rod and line for shy biting roach and Rudd. Much easier to plumb up and map out the swim, feed accurately via cup or pot and lift into the tiniest indication in a flash...

barbelboi · May 18, 2012

Also agree, although the pole is not a welcome choice for me , but for this situation and pressurised crucians , I’d go for the pole as first choice for the reasons in the post above.
Jerry

sam vimes · May 18, 2012

Thanks for the responses. However, I suspect that I probably haven't made myself clear enough. The place is a fairly featureless bowl. Shallow margins, shelves, bars etc are absolutely minimal. The shallowest bay is a good ten feet deep. I don't recall seeing any signs of roach, barring fry, within waggler range, let alone pole range. When we do see fish dimpling it's usually at range and over deep water. Getting feed out to them is difficult and fishing a shallow waggler is a nightmare due to the range and the tow that's generated by minimal wind on such a large deep water.

I'd be perfectly happy to break out my match style gear and pole but, sadly, I suspect that I'd end up with a bad back and no bites. As far as I can tell, it's not a case of getting bites and not seeing them, just rarely getting near to getting bites.

The place really is a headbanger. I'd love to be able to invite a load of folks along to endure the same frustration that many of us on there get to feeling from time to time!

Keep the suggestions coming, there's already a few pointers that might come in useful. Thank you.

chub_on_the_block · May 18, 2012

Pre-bait a comfortable area to fish eg the bay, or an area near any feature as their importance may be increased if there is not much else to find. I would fish waggler and feed heaviliy in that 10ft of water, slow-sink, aim for fish-on-the drop - or bites to start with. I would go very fine on hooklength too - treating it like a hard match - doesnt sound like many snags around.

Bait - hemp, caster and tares perhaps

Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC) · May 18, 2012

The Loxley Bubble fished puller style for catching up in the water.

When I have a moment I'll illustrate

waggy · May 18, 2012

You haven't mentioned whether it's got plenty of colour or is crystal clear, Sam.

barbelboi · May 18, 2012

That’s the problem Sam ,local knowledge. On three different waters I’m tenching at the moment that I know pretty well I break off from time to time for the roach. In the last few weeks, be it the farm pond, estate lake or gravel pit, they’ve all been up in the water on the drop. Best of luck.
Jerry

sam vimes · May 18, 2012

waggy said:
You haven't mentioned whether it's got plenty of colour or is crystal clear, Sam.

It varies quite a bit with wind/wave action, occasional weather dependant inflow and algal blooms, but tends towards very, very clear.

---------- Post added at 21:02 ---------- Previous post was at 20:55 ----------

barbelboi said:
That’s the problem Sam ,local knowledge. On three different waters I’m tenching at the moment that I know pretty well I break off from time to time for the roach. In the last few weeks, be it the farm pond, estate lake or gravel pit, they’ve all been up in the water on the drop. Best of luck.
Jerry

That's the big problem with this place, no one is catching them. I'm increasingly convinced that they are up in the water at ranges that we just can't get at them. I'm catching as well as anyone on the place, but, like everyone else, only the carp. Even they aren't particularly abundant, it's a case of bait and wait or go and look for them. I favour the latter, but it can be damned hard work.

barbelboi · May 18, 2012

Just a thought Sam, also been hitting/missing some good roach at distance up in the water whilst going for carp on a different water, These are on an 6/8mm pellet on a banded hair. If I was intentionally going for the roach I’d probably go for a 4/6mm pellet banded directly on the hook with a puddle chucker...might be worth a go.
Jerry
PS Also of course maggots/caster but not an option on this one as the little guys would total them on this particular pit

scottt · May 18, 2012

Anyone that thinks Roach wont go into deep water has probably never fished a really deep water.
Your water sounds very much like one of my local waters but a bit shallower, uze a feeder with plenty of groundbait at that depth most waters are fairly baren so a lot of food going in gives them something to go at.

sam vimes · May 18, 2012

barbelboi said:
Just a thought Sam, also been hitting/missing some good roach at distance up in the water whilst going for carp on a different water, These are on an 6/8mm pellet on a banded hair. If I was intentionally going for the roach I’d probably go for a 4/6mm pellet banded directly on the hook with a puddle chucker...might be worth a go.
Jerry
PS Also of course maggots/caster but not an option on this one as the little guys would total them on this particular pit

I very much doubt that they'd know what a pellet was. I'm not concerned about the possibility of picking up small fish, it's such a headbanger that any fish at all would be greeted with delight. You've no idea how much joy even a two ounce roach would bring!

This place is that much of a challenge.

P.S. If anyone knows of several skip fulls of "nuisance" small fish (roach, rudd, gudgeon) are going spare anywhere.........

barbelboi · May 18, 2012

Sam, in my experience they know what they want even if they haven't seen it before. Back in the 90's my son's first 2lb+ river roach were all on 10mm boilies (obviously meant for something else) IMO you're very likely to catch on what you wouldn't use out of choice (especially if it's different). I.e dace on size 4 hooks free lining lobworm for chub (would anyone really target them this way?), crucians on bolt rigged plastic corn, etc.
Jerry

skullsat · May 18, 2012

Try worm on the hook,chopped worm,maggot,caster and hemp,i also use liquidized bread in a method,you might get a few carp but you might also get the elusive roach,liquidize the whole slice with the crusts,as it'll create a nice funnel of particles on the way down,good luck

Deep water roach and rudd?

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