Definitions

Quite regularly when I'm reading various threads on various forums I'm aware that people describe various things in a way I don't recognise.
Two that immediately spring to mind are commies/commercial(s)/commercial fisheries and carping/carp fishing.

Notwithstanding dictionary definitions, I recognise a commercial fishery as a match type venue, stuffed to the gunnells with fish, often with a cafe/tackle shop and sometimes, not always, with more than one pond (I'm thinking Woodlands, Makins, Lindholme etc). I accept that any fishery that's there to make money is by definition a commercial entity. However, I don't think that makes all such waters to be commies. (I'm thinking of the likes of Linear)

In a similar vein, carping. As far as I'm concerned, sitting on a commie banging out 3lb carp may well be fishing for carp, but it isn't carping, regardless of the type of gear used.

I know that others disagree, my bemusement when I read their posts is evidence of that. What say the forum? Feel free to add any other common angling words or phrases that various folk seem use quite differently leaving you puzzled.

sam vimes said:

Notwithstanding dictionary definitions, I recognise a commercial fishery as a match type venue, stuffed to the gunnells with fish, often with a cafe/tackle shop and sometimes, not always, with more than one pond (I'm thinking Woodlands, Makins, Lindholme etc). I accept that any fishery that's there to make money is by definition a commercial entity. However, I don't think that makes all such waters to be commies. (I'm thinking of the likes of Linear)

In a similar vein, carping. As far as I'm concerned, sitting on a commie banging out 3lb carp may well be fishing for carp, but it isn't carping, regardless of the type of gear used.

Click to expand...

I`ve done a fair bit of local travelling this year, I reckon I`ve fished around 16-18 different stillwater venues and of those maybe 6 or so hosted matches regularly. I`m not sure how many of them are natural waters but it would be difficult in my eyes to consider many (if any) of them as true commercials. Some are privately owned and some are club waters that sell day tickets. Certainly some of them were purpose built and stocked but none of them have shops/cafes or sell their own bait. You could probably catch carp up to 20lbs or so in most of them but given that many do not allow night fishing and most are small ponds of just a few acres then I would say that only 3 or 4 could be considered carp waters, and proper carpers might well reduce that list further.

To me a commercial is a privately owned lake that charges the angling public day ticket rates irrespective of facilities.

All the others are syndicate, club or invite only lake/river venues, usually charging an annual subscription rate but occasionally also charge a separate 'exclusivity rate' or night rate for the carpers/ non members.

laguna said:

To me a commercial is a privately owned lake that charges the angling public day ticket rates irrespective of facilities.

Click to expand...

As I suggested earlier, it's obvious that some think this way but, beyond the dictionary definition of commercial, does that little day ticket farm pond, that's being charging a £2 day ticket since 1982, really qualify as being a commercial?
You, and others, obviously do think it's a commercial, I just can't see it.
Are you simply applying the dictionary definition of commercial? Where do club waters available on day tickets come into it? (that's without getting really confusing by bringing something like Leeds' Kippax ponds into it) What about town and city council day ticket stillwaters?

'Pleasure Angler' is one that find odd.

Is an angler who is not categorised as a 'pleasure angler' doing it as some sort of chore or for displeasure?

Surely the term is simply 'Angler'

But what do you think?

Yep, good one Corky. However, I do think I've met a few displeasure anglers over the years. I don't object to the term as such. The negative connotation given to the term, by those that seem to feel that they are somehow superior to a mere pleasure angler, is what gets on my wick.

Although a commercial is usually a day-ticket water with easy access to swims, on-site tackle etc i would say it is the management of the stock and stock density towards large numbers of carp that is the main element. Even a club-water can be managed in such a way that it mimics a popular commie - eg a "canal" water stocked with silvers and F1s.

Pleasure angling is such an old term. I would define it as NOT fishing in a match or NOT targeting specimen-sized fish. In practice a pleasure angler may well fish the odd match or spend some sessions targeting specimen fish, so theres probably few hardcore Pleasure anglers who simply turn up with no aspirations other than to wet a line.

confidence when related to fishing bugs me , how does confidence affect your bait presentation the other one is "fishing for bites" what does that mean ?

Until very recently I thought the term 'Pasties' referred to a small Carp like fish that readily took Paste baits. I now believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that it should be 'Pasty' as in they resemble as an edible Pasty as in 'Cornish Pasty' or as much enjoyed with chips.

To me the term commercial fishery is one that is run as a business and one that you have to pay for beyond the club book - this excludes farm ponds and day ticket stretches of river where you give a couple of quid to the farmer for his troubles

What you fish for, or how you fish doesn't really come in to it for me..

bennygesserit said:

confidence when related to fishing bugs me , how does confidence affect your bait presentation the other one is "fishing for bites" what does that mean ?

Click to expand...

As far as I'm concerned, confidence is vital. Confidence that a rig is fishing properly and not tangled. Confidence that a bait is a good one that works, even if there's little evidence of it at the time. Such things can make a big difference. Without confidence you can end up reeling in and recasting too often, swapping and changing rigs, methods and baits unnecessarily.

"Fishing for bites" is a bit strange. My interpretation being that the angler is after anything that swims rather than targeting a specific species or just larger fish. If I'm on a river fishing for barbel, using meat and boilies, I'll accept that I may pick up the odd bream or chub too. If I switch to maggot and worm, chances are that I'm no longer targeting anything in particular, just anything with fins. At that point I would be "fishing for bites".
It's often used by match types on commercials where in the summer they'd target carp in pursuit of big match winning weights. They certainly don't really want roach, rudd, skimmers etc. However, come the first frosts and into the winter, they may not be targeting carp any longer. They could well be happy to catch anything at all by then and will often be "fishing for bites".

bottle rocket said:

Until very recently I thought the term 'Pasties' referred to a small Carp like fish that readily took Paste baits. I now believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that it should be 'Pasty' as in they resemble as an edible Pasty as in 'Cornish Pasty' or as much enjoyed with chips.

Click to expand...

The plural of pasty (which can also be spelled as pastie) is, as I understand it, pasties. However, you are correct in thinking that pasties refers to small carp due to them looking vaguely like the Cornish consumeable. Nothing to do with paste baits and surely we'd be looking at pastey(s) or pastes if it were?

bottle rocket said:

What you fish for, or how you fish doesn't really come in to it for me..

Click to expand...

If that's referencing "carping" it was seperate to the question of what constitutes a commercial. Just that some folks seem to consider anyone fishing for carp as a carper, I don't. Catching 100lb+ of carp on a pole is not carping in my eyes.

I think there's a case to make for importing the American term "pay lake" as short for "day-ticket water".
To me, there are three main classes of paylake:
- club or public waters, either natural or dug for non-angling purposes, mainly naturally stocked and/or lightly topped up and managed;
- club or private waters managed quite closely, with match facilities but with the emphasis on quality, mixed, year-round fishing;
-out-and-out "baggin'" (insert vomiting emoticon) waters; purpose dug for big-weight matches with an island in reach of a pole at every swim.

Trying to find non-judgemental terms for them, however, is a bit of a challenge.

Now I've got my first thoughts down, I realise it's more complicated than that, and you can spend a while drawing Venn diagrams of the reason for the existence of the water, the intensity of management, stocking levels, facilities provided, and target "audience", to name but five... one might be better off going fishing.

IMO confidence in your angling ability is possibly the most important part of catching fish.
Jerry

sam vimes said:

However, you are correct in thinking that pasties refers to small carp due to them looking vaguely like the Cornish consumeable. Nothing to do with paste baits and surely we'd be looking at pastey(s) or pastes if it were?

Click to expand...

I thought they were pasties like Brits abroad - pasty white skin. Carp with no colour from a muddy puddle. Not just carp - any fish with no depth of colour (eg pasty roach).

The "fishing for bites" is something i often up doing, especially in winter. I may start off with intentions of a netful of chub on a big bait but end up hoping to catch anything at all - even a gudgeon. Usually accompanied by scaling down to a fine hooklength, tiny hook and single maggot. This will be done with the aspiration of catching a 1Ib + roach of course, but i have failed to do that often enough to know what the reality is likely to be.

chub_on_the_block said:

I thought they were pasties like Brits abroad - pasty white skin. Carp with no colour from a muddy puddle. Not just carp - any fish with no depth of colour (eg pasty roach).

Click to expand...

As I said, not to my understanding. However, it demonstrates admirably the point I'm getting at. We use these terms with one thing in mind, yet another could understand it quite differently. Three different people with three different ideas of what something as simple as "pasties" actually means.

However, I have heard of pale fish from coloured water being pasty. Can't say as I've ever heard "pasty roach" used though. If someone says they are catching pasties, I take it to mean that they are catching small carp of around a pound or less.

sam vimes said:

If someone says they are catching pasties, I take it to mean that they are catching small carp of around a pound or less.

Click to expand...

That`s what I would think too.

sam vimes said:

Just that some folks seem to consider anyone fishing for carp as a carper, I don't. Catching 100lb+ of carp on a pole is not carping in my eyes.

Click to expand...

Again I`d agree. I fish for carp at a lot of the venues I visit but I don`t consider myself a carper.

My opinion, and my opinion only:-
Commercials - fisheries run as a business usually full of small carp, and other 'stillwater offerings' such as barbel and chub. Often featureless mud bowls - Cudmore - tough to blank at such venues, often the fish are in questionable condition.

Pasties - Small carp sub 6lb.

sam vimes said:

As I suggested earlier, it's obvious that some think this way but, beyond the dictionary definition of commercial, does that little day ticket farm pond, that's being charging a £2 day ticket since 1982, really qualify as being a commercial?
You, and others, obviously do think it's a commercial, I just can't see it.
Are you simply applying the dictionary definition of commercial? Where do club waters available on day tickets come into it? (that's without getting really confusing by bringing something like Leeds' Kippax ponds into it) What about town and city council day ticket stillwaters?

Click to expand...

No Sam, thats just my own take on it.
That little day ticket farm pond is a commercial and I suppose according to my own interpretation it always has, all but in novo name been a "commi"!

As for town and city day ticket waters, Harold park belonging to Bradford No1 is a club water (has been long before any of these modern terms were coined) but for others run/maintained by local councils such as those like Roundhay (now free fishing, formally Leeds amagamation?) unadopted by clubs? haven't got a clue!

Pasties = small carp 'commercially' baked in pastry bought from Gregs (also available at Iceland)!

Ok i think I'm with this so far. Pasties are the small carp in these commercials, not something that is VATable if hot when sold. But dont they grow any bigger than pasty-sized? or is it only full of pasties for the first couple of years after the hole was dug (with the scenic islands and stuff) and filled up with murky brown water?.

What happens to a pasty when it grows up?. Does it become a Super-pastie?. What about the Leviathan Pasties?

laguna said:

No Sam, thats just my own take on it.

Click to expand...

Indeed, but from what I've seen you aren't alone.

Most established commercials I know have pastie sized carp (1-1.5lb) plus most other species of fish but the averaged sized carp will be in the 3-5lb range but very often have bigger ones going up to 15lb +, hence the reason the pole markets have had to adapt over the years to meet the size of fish being caught, most of them will have been stocked as pasties. I suppose the meaning of a fishing commercial to me would be a primary business to the owner unlike say the Council pond where it’s maintained as a leisure facility for the local community but needs to charge for its upkeep or a farmer charging a few pound for a days fishing.