Has carp bagging destroyed angling as we know it?.

Just a thought from another thread. Has 'Carp bagging' destroyed a unique style of angling in the UK? I read Zaccaria's thread with interest that he plies his trade using the Bolognese method and perfecting this as it suits his venues in Florence. The skills in this country could be wanting to float fish like Billy lane, or ledger like Ivan Marks.

In the UK, I would argue that the match scene is dominated by 'Carp bagging' venues where tonne weights (as in 100lb +) bags are the norm. A local club had superb tench and silver fish lakes with a few carp. To be honest, the carp were welcome as they were over double figures and were a bit of fun. The tench fishing was superb! Multiple catches of tench in the 6 to 8lb bracket and rumors of doubles made it a place that made me spend hours on its banks. It was easy to put together 10lb of silvers in an evening!

In a bid to give anglers 'what they want' - their desire is to emulate the overstocked Comercial fisheries. Carp after carp stocking publicised on their web site..... Now all you could catch is pasty sized carp - the tench don't get a look in and are now a rarity.

The rivers don't get fished in part, because matches are not held locally - there is no reason for anglers to hone their skills.

I think its getting dire:

Overstocked carp fisheries are suspect on welfare grounds.

Lost skills such as trotting a stick float, or wagler, lost in preference to pellet bagging.

New and returning anglers can even come away and feel they have achieved - which is great - but its out of context:

Catching a few pound of roach and skimmers appeals far less than 4 or 5 carp pulling your rod in at around 4/5 pound apiece.

It may be what people want - but is it ethical to manipulate the land - dig a lake and fill it in with unsustainable quanities of fish just to sell daytickets. The result of this policy were obvious from the start - escalations of stocking to attract more and more match bookings.

My point is: we used to adapt our methods to suit a particular river or lake.

Now, it would appear venues are manipulated to suit a particular method/preference.

I could add:

Transfer of disease (Dipping nets in disinfectant) never had to do that before.....
Transfer of non-indiginous fish stocks from overstocked venues to rivers in times of flood.
Rediculous fish rules on spurious grounds of fish welfare.

It is odd this. I seem to remember a survey done some time ago where anglers were asked what type of fishing they most desired. And I believe "the natural unadulterated" type of fishing won by a large amount. Don't remember the exact details but, it seems at odds with what anglers actually do. If this was the case then commercials and clubs would be pandering to the desires of this majority if it really exists.

There are a lot of interesting points there.

I've personally never gone near one of these waters and wouldn't but clearly there is a demand which I can't for the life of me fathom why?

Interestingly, our local club water has always been run on a consultative basis and overwhelmingly the members have voiced that they wish to keep it the naturalised water that it is and not to go down the carp stocking route, at the same time the same members also voice how hard the water can frequently fish and they would still prefer this to the artificial environment that could be the alternative.

The welfare issue is a strong one for me, I know there are recommended stocking ratios (but don't know what they are) but at the end of the day I still see it as creating fish soup and I can't see how increasing competition for the available food as opposed to the fishes natural way of feeding can be any good for them at all.

One other thing I will mention is that less and less river fishing remains open on a day ticket basis due to the control of clubs.

Around here you have many clubs controlling stretches of the River Trent, go on to Ashfield Anglers website and look at the length of the waiting list, Notts Piscatorilas have something like fourteen miles of river for 750 memebers... whenever I drive by one of their stretches I barely ever see an angler on the bank but try joining them, it's extremely difficult indeed and if clubs continue to take control of so much river fishing without giving the option of a day ticket then this in turn puts more pressure on the available day ticket stretches and on that basis I can see why some might think b*gg*r it and head to their nearest carp puddle.

Edited: Didn't want to get sued by a club!

Yes!...... a balanced mixed fishery is a pleasure to fish,carp included, but why anyone would want to fish a water crammed with small starving carp is beyond me.

What a pathetic legacy to leave to future generations of anglers.

It doesn't seem to have destroyed angling as we know it in your neck of the woods Chav. You only have to go an hour north on the A12 from Ipswich to find sell out open matches (100 anglers on average) every week on the Yare, catches mainly made up of roach and bream.

It is just another way of fishing. Ask yourself the question if I were just starting my angling career today would you turn your nose up at these fisheries the answer would more than likely be no. They may not be every journeyman anglers cup of tea but they do have a place in angling today.

A quick answer to your question - YES!!!!

I was in a club that has what was once one of the NW premier specimen waters with lovely tench, golden tench, bream and chub along with golden orfe (British record).

They introduced pasties and ****ed it up completely.

They also introduced barbel, trout grayling and.........wait for it......Salmon!!!!

Commercial fisheries have undoubtedly changed angling in recent years. Whether you consider that change to be a destruction or not is simply a matter of perspective. While I'm not a strong advocate of commercial fisheries, it could easily be argued that they are actually the saviours of modern angling. Just how many of the more natural venues have been ruined by various external pressures, abstraction, flood defences, dredging, phosphates, pollution etc?

I suspect that reality is somewhere in the middle. Commercials haven't destroyed angling, sure, they've changed it, but not destroyed it. It's a feat that they couldn't possibly achieve in isolation.

My involvement and use of commercials extends as far as the odd winter trip.
However, from that experience, I'd strongly suggest that those that view the odd match result, then presume that such fishing is incredibly easy, think again. Perhaps if they entered such matches and had their backsides handed to them every time, they may re-appraise.

Where the idea that fish in commercials are starving comes from is beyond me. True, I haven't been to every commercial going, but those I have been to are simply not like that. What does leave me cold about commercials is the general condition of the fishes mouths and the way that fish handling often leaves a lot to be desired. However, that is down to the anglers concerned and not the fishery.

The bottom line is that people like to catch fish. If you make that aim easier they will frequent your fishery. Many simply don't want the various challenges that a more natural fishery presents. Do I particularly agree with those that want it on a plate? No. Can I understand it? Yes.
It's simply the opposite end of the spectrum to those that spends years for one or two runs from one specific fish in a water with a slack handfull of fish. I can appreciate the dedication but I don't understand the mentality nor will I ever have the time, money or patience required.

Those with the bent to avoid commercials aren't really that much different, they generally want to catch fish too. If they were totally different, then you wouldn't see hordes of of travelling anglers on the Trent, Wye, or whichever river is producing the goods at the time.

Berty said:

Yes!...... a balanced mixed fishery is a pleasure to fish,carp included, but why anyone would want to fish a water crammed with small starving carp is beyond me.

What a pathetic legacy to leave to future generations of anglers.

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I totally disagree with your first passage but am in complete agreement with your second.

These mixed fisheries of old, on the whole have not gone just changed; if I look at two prime 'bagging' waters in my area; Boddington and Clattercote reservoirs.
Bream always were the dominant species, now replaced with carp!
(and after spending a day bream fishing recently, I say good riddance)

Then we need to look at why anglers so quickly (willingly) left our rivers enmass - Simple our rivers were starting to decline.

Has anyone forgotten how to float fish a river as a direct result of carp stocked water, errrrrrrrrrrr NO!!
Some may never have learnt how to but forgotten, I say not.


Basically it's our (everyones) fault for letting our rivers decline the way we have (everyone has). Now that's a pathetic legacy!

Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC) said:

A quick answer to your question - YES!!!!

I was in a club that has what was once one of the NW premier specimen waters with lovely tench, golden tench, bream and chub along with golden orfe (British record).

They introduced pasties and ****ed it up completely.

They also introduced barbel, trout grayling and.........wait for it......Salmon!!!!

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First point, golden tench, golden orfe? A totally natural water then?
Second point, how can the actions of an idiotic club and idiotic stocking policy be blamed on commercial fishing?

Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC) said:

A quick answer to your question - YES!!!!

I was in a club that has what was once one of the NW premier specimen waters with lovely tench, golden tench, bream and chub along with golden orfe (British record).

They introduced pasties and ****ed it up completely.

They also introduced barbel, trout grayling and.........wait for it......Salmon!!!!

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Sounds more like a tropical aquarium than an English lake.

---------- Post added at 10:48 ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 ----------

sam vimes said:

how can the actions of an idiotic club and idiotic stocking policy be blamed on commercial fishing?

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To be fair, I think Chav Prof has questioned (blamed) so much in connection with carp, no matter how tenuous the link maybe, it's almost an impossibility to answer him.

I dont mind the purpose-built commercial fisheries (not that i would fish them) as the alternative might be another field of wheat and on balance they can add to the environment whilst giving a farmer or landowner an opportunity to diversify their income (and create a job or several).

I do have a problem with changing old established lakes, such as those which once had a reputation for other species besides carp - thinking here of great tench, rudd, bream or roach waters. Although the fame of such places may only have been temporary -when cycles of fish populations were optimal, changing them to a carp fishery would prevent those conditions ever returning and this would be a loss to the history of waters. Bit like if Redmire was stocked with rainbows and became a put and take fishery.

The best commercials in my opinion offer a wide range of fishing. The one I used to visit Frant Lakes in Kent has about 8 lakes, silver fish only, carp only , big carp only and a couple of good tench ponds + a bit of river that is stocked with all sorts. Its not natural fishing but, its a good fishery. each lake is prone to fishing for one species but not exclusively so. The manager goes round feeding the fish with bagfuls of bread every so often. This I imagine is an ideal fishery.

chub_on_the_block said:

I do have a problem with changing old established lakes, such as those which once had a reputation for other species besides carp - thinking here of great tench, rudd, bream or roach waters. Although the fame of such places may only have been temporary -when cycles of fish populations were optimal, changing them to a carp fishery would prevent those conditions ever returning and this would be a loss to the history of waters. Bit like if Redmire was stocked with rainbows and became a put and take fishery.

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I don't necessarily disagree, but surely that's just the way of the world? I've seen fisheries changed for the better and fisheries changed for the worse. Again, it's probably just a question of perspective. I've seen a local gravel pit turned from commercial trout fishery into a mixed coarse fishery. It's not perfect, but it's a change for the better, from my point of view. You can bet that there will be others that take a totally opposite view.

sam vimes said:

I don't necessarily disagree, but surely that's just the way of the world? I've seen fisheries changed for the better and fisheries changed for the worse. Again, it's probably just a question of perspective. I've seen a local gravel pit turned from commercial trout fishery into a mixed coarse fishery. It's not perfect, but it's a change for the better, from my point of view. You can bet that there will be others that take a totally opposite view.

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As far as fishery managment goes you will always upset more people than you please especially on club waters.

tiinker said:

As far as fishery managment goes you will always upset more people than you please especially on club waters.

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Surely that depends upon the club concerned and how their membership and leadership is formed. A club of like minds ruled by democratically elected people should, in theory, be incapable of upsetting more than they please.

As far as I'm concerned it's one of the joys of a carefully selected syndicate. Like minded individuals ruled by a benign dictator. It may not work for every individual every time, but you rarely manage to annoy most.

Imo the advent of commercial fisheries and before this the development of the carbon pole have proved detremental to angling as a whole,both have greatly reduced skill levels within angling,when a certain Mark Pollard came to the fore,he was a great waggler angler and could cast and control a 2bb float tight to the far bank of the cut,now,as long as your pole is long enough,you can shove your float up a rat hole,having experienced and taken part in both my quotes above,the problem of commercials to the 'capable' pleasure angler is that nearly all baits and methods catch,even the use of a rubber bead as bait whilst continually peppering the water with 3-4mm pellets,the straw that broke the camels back for me was whilst i was fishing Alders Farm,Great Brickhill,i'd been 'bagging' on carp,feeding to my left hand side when the sun became so bright that i could'nt see my float,so in desperation i decided to switch sides and risk losing the fish,or taking a fair while to rebuil my swim,to my amazement the starving carp fed from the first cast,as if i'd been feeding there all day,i was only feeding about a dozen 4mm pellets a cast....ridiculous.uke:

'destroyed'? no. changed? yes.

Natural venues are still there, and in some quiet corners, they are fishing as well as, if not better than ever.

As a coach and organiser of junior matches, I see it as a double-edged sword.
One one hand, it is now easier for young anglers to get into fishing. Venues are safer (no dog dirt or cyclists to contend with), have proper facilities like toilets and cafes and are more accessible. The fishing is easy to pick up and understand with guaranteed catches. I had to wait 5 years before I caught my first carp, now kids can catch one first cast.

The problem as I see it, is longevity and a loss of certain finesse skills. It's hard work trying to motivate kids who have been brought up pasty-bashing to scale down to 3s elastic and 0.08 bottoms and fish for roach on a canal. Most are simply not interested in silver fish, and important skills like slider fishing, bloodworm and joker, hemp and breadpunch are becoming novelties rather than essential techniques.

james said:

The problem as I see it, is longevity and a loss of certain finesse skills. It's hard work trying to motivate kids who have been brought up pasty-bashing to scale down to 3s elastic and 0.08 bottoms and fish for roach on a canal. Most are simply not interested in silver fish, and important skills like slider fishing, bloodworm and joker, hemp and breadpunch are becoming novelties rather than essential techniques.

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I can't disagree, but with a caveat. As a nipper, and still occasionally as an adult, I was perfectly content to knock out a bag of silvers. Most of my childhood was spent doing exactly that. However, the techniques you describe have never been, and probably never will be, part and parcel of my angling. Mainly because there's not a canal to speak of within seventy miles or so. You don't have to look to the marginally more focussed methods to find many modern anglers lacking. Look to something as universal as trotting a float down a river. There a plenty of general anglers out there that couldn't do it if they tried. You don't even have to go as far as looking to hoards of modern carp anglers that have never ever fished a float of any description in their entire angling lives.

It's giving the angling public what they want. 20 years or so ago it was 100lb bream catches that caught angler's imagination and they would go off to Ireland and Denmark because achieving the mystical 'ton' was easier there. Now businessmen provide the latest angling 'must do' all ready packaged up on their doorsteps.