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This is a dedicated thread for discussing article: Predation and Angling
Predation and Angling
- Thread starter FishingMagic
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itsfishingnotcatching
Well-known member
It is now beyond doubt that the recovery in the otter population (whether by natural means or through re-introductions) is one of the greatest threats to angling as we know it. To combat this threat, the Angling Trust has devised an action plan; it will be:
Emotive cr*p, try pollution, dumping of raw sewage, water extraction, cormorants and dredging before starting on native indigenous species.
• Calling for an increase in EA funding for effective fencing of still waters, such funding to extend to club and syndicate waters, not just those which sell day tickets
Not a bad idea, but, where does the money come from?
• Educating Defra and the EA into accepting that there is now a serious problem from otter predation
Where exactly? It has had an effect in certain areas when others have been relatively unscathed.
• Pressing for an increase in funding for research into effective methods of deterring otters from stillwaters where fencing is not feasible
More funding:wh
• Pushing for acceptance by the government that restoration of ecosystems should be planned from the bottom up, rather than from the top down. This means such things as restoring a healthy flow and tackling pollution, rather than introducing top-end predators and building otter holts when the local environment is already depleted
So the otter is not the major problem then?
• Educating government agencies into accepting that otter reintroductions were ill-advised and mismanaged, and that lessons learned must be applied to any future reintroductions of other species
Would agree in some locations,
Perhaps Rod would care to discuss on the Forum on this occasion.
Ian
Emotive cr*p, try pollution, dumping of raw sewage, water extraction, cormorants and dredging before starting on native indigenous species.
• Calling for an increase in EA funding for effective fencing of still waters, such funding to extend to club and syndicate waters, not just those which sell day tickets
Not a bad idea, but, where does the money come from?
• Educating Defra and the EA into accepting that there is now a serious problem from otter predation
Where exactly? It has had an effect in certain areas when others have been relatively unscathed.
• Pressing for an increase in funding for research into effective methods of deterring otters from stillwaters where fencing is not feasible
More funding:wh
• Pushing for acceptance by the government that restoration of ecosystems should be planned from the bottom up, rather than from the top down. This means such things as restoring a healthy flow and tackling pollution, rather than introducing top-end predators and building otter holts when the local environment is already depleted
So the otter is not the major problem then?
• Educating government agencies into accepting that otter reintroductions were ill-advised and mismanaged, and that lessons learned must be applied to any future reintroductions of other species
Would agree in some locations,
Perhaps Rod would care to discuss on the Forum on this occasion.
Ian
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Congratulations Rod,
This is a far better article than the previous FM article:
Ian makes some pertinent points in his response and flags up some of the key points that still need addressing:
- the need for hard facts and figures due to different sources of predation,
- regional variations,
- variations in fishery health and the underlying problems,
- doubts over funding and sources,
In addition we need a really comprehensive national regionalised survey on the state of fisheries, stocks, pollution incidents, water (mis-)management, coupled with predation threats and control measures in order to be able to come up with sensible, sustainable policies and the cash required!
This is a far better article than the previous FM article:
and at least spells out what some of the measures are, their limitations, and some ways forward!
Ian makes some pertinent points in his response and flags up some of the key points that still need addressing:
- the need for hard facts and figures due to different sources of predation,
- regional variations,
- variations in fishery health and the underlying problems,
- doubts over funding and sources,
In addition we need a really comprehensive national regionalised survey on the state of fisheries, stocks, pollution incidents, water (mis-)management, coupled with predation threats and control measures in order to be able to come up with sensible, sustainable policies and the cash required!
The bad one
Well-known member
Look to me like there might be another otter debacle heading this way 
But I doubt very much Mr Sturdy will be engaging in it though. As he's the ATr's Taliban. Hits and runs to fight another day.
But I doubt very much Mr Sturdy will be engaging in it though. As he's the ATr's Taliban. Hits and runs to fight another day.
I think you are right Phil, after all we have done the Close Season to death so a good old divisive debate on the Otter is probably overdue.
[difficult to type with tongue firmly in cheek though, innit]
[difficult to type with tongue firmly in cheek though, innit]
thecrow
Well-known member
I don't give two hoots about otters, its the bloody penguins that have been illegally released that worry me, along with the crocodiles that prevent me from bivvying up.
Judas Priest
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Yet more utter carp from the ATr's band of zealots.
Cracking post itsfishingnot
We have had a family of Otters on our stretch of river for many many years ( they were in residence when we took it on ) and there's still a large head of all species, and in all those years I've never found a barbel ,chub whatever with supposed Otter damage.
As has been said the bigger threats to our waterways are discharge of sewage etc and abstraction on a monumental scale.
Cracking post itsfishingnot
We have had a family of Otters on our stretch of river for many many years ( they were in residence when we took it on ) and there's still a large head of all species, and in all those years I've never found a barbel ,chub whatever with supposed Otter damage.
As has been said the bigger threats to our waterways are discharge of sewage etc and abstraction on a monumental scale.
black kettle
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Sorry guys but I would find it difficult making this hogwash up.
They have been banging on about otter fencing for yonks and more to the point, they think that the EA/Government should be paying for it. By now one would think that the AT would have sussed it. No one is going to pay for otter fencing. NO ONE.
When the otter predation issue first reared its fluffy head way back when I was in angling politics the drum for otter fencing was banged endlessly and no one in government listened. Has ow't changed? Nope. Will it change? Nope. Frankly, I asked lots of questions at the time concerning rivers because I saw no effective measure of protecting rivers against otter predation. And given that river fish are deemed wild creatures its a fair bet that government won't give a fig either.
Rivers with good fish recruitment (like the Trent for example) won't be bothered unduly with otter predation just the same as it hasn't been with cormorants. Other rivers however will suffer and venues like Adams Mill and Sayers Meadow can kiss their specimen sized fish toodle pip once otters move in and that's the reality for "some" specimen venues. Like it or not that is the reality.
I have absolutely no problem with otters. What does bother me however is the idea that apex predators, in this case the otter, receive 100% protected status with no provision whatsoever given for measures of control should predation get out of hand. By the same token I have nothing against wolves or beavers but regard their release into the wilds of Britain as utter madness.
Regards,
Lee.
They have been banging on about otter fencing for yonks and more to the point, they think that the EA/Government should be paying for it. By now one would think that the AT would have sussed it. No one is going to pay for otter fencing. NO ONE.
When the otter predation issue first reared its fluffy head way back when I was in angling politics the drum for otter fencing was banged endlessly and no one in government listened. Has ow't changed? Nope. Will it change? Nope. Frankly, I asked lots of questions at the time concerning rivers because I saw no effective measure of protecting rivers against otter predation. And given that river fish are deemed wild creatures its a fair bet that government won't give a fig either.
Rivers with good fish recruitment (like the Trent for example) won't be bothered unduly with otter predation just the same as it hasn't been with cormorants. Other rivers however will suffer and venues like Adams Mill and Sayers Meadow can kiss their specimen sized fish toodle pip once otters move in and that's the reality for "some" specimen venues. Like it or not that is the reality.
I have absolutely no problem with otters. What does bother me however is the idea that apex predators, in this case the otter, receive 100% protected status with no provision whatsoever given for measures of control should predation get out of hand. By the same token I have nothing against wolves or beavers but regard their release into the wilds of Britain as utter madness.
Regards,
Lee.
The bad one
Well-known member
And you are worried about the Wolves Lee? You should have been on Ainsdale beach with me Wednesday afternoon gone and seen the size of the footprint the Trex left the night before in the mud.
Be afraid be very afraid
Be afraid be very afraid
no-one in particular
Well-known member
I think I must have read 5 or 6 of Rods pontifications in the last few months and I I am trying to remember if he has ever engaged in a debate or answered any questions for anyone and I am trying to understand why. Anyone know?
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thecrow
Well-known member
Perhaps he isn't a member, that or he only likes to hear his own views and nobody elses.
bennygesserit
Well-known member
By the authors arguments the plains of Africa would be wall to wall lions but then again the author drops the bomb and legs it - tantamount to trolling.
no-one in particular
Well-known member
So Mr Sturdy, do you think the number of otters will ever find their natural numbers in relation to the food stocks IE, as the number of fish decline for them to feed on they will breed less and eventually find their own sustainable natural numbers and be less of a threat to angling given enough time.?
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no-one in particular
Well-known member
oops-I think its Mr Sturdy.
nogoodboyo
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Hi Rod
Do some mushrooms.
Put an end to your pathological hatred of wildlife.
Take up a nice relaxing hobby.
I hear angling is good for the soul.
Do some mushrooms.
Put an end to your pathological hatred of wildlife.
Take up a nice relaxing hobby.
I hear angling is good for the soul.
geoffmaynard
Content Editor
I like people who speak their mind. It raises interesting debates. I agree with much of what Rod says but I also respect the views of the counter-arguers. Rod has contributed to the forum in the past but is not what one would consider a regular poster. Not all issues are black and white and your experiences, and mine, and his, may differ. So no need to get personal chaps.
I agree there are are more pressing issues than otters; cormorants etc are a bigger problem in my experience but they ARE a major problem in many areas. But the biggest problem imo is the ruddy daft systems which allows these things to become a problem. I wish I had an answer for it
I agree there are are more pressing issues than otters; cormorants etc are a bigger problem in my experience but they ARE a major problem in many areas. But the biggest problem imo is the ruddy daft systems which allows these things to become a problem. I wish I had an answer for it
chub_on_the_block
Well-known member
I was walking around two old estate lakes at a National Trust property in Cambridgeshire earlier today. No fishing is allowed in either, sadly, nor has it been for several decades at least. Shallow and weedy i saw a few small carp to 5Ib or so and vast shoals of rudd in the 4-6oz range (nothing much larger unfortunately). The shallow margins are also rammed with fry at the moment. None of this seems particularly unusual for traditional unmanaged waters i know - but why havent cormorants taken it apart yet? It is not situated within a major river valley - so perhaps they havent found it yet. There is also a lot of submerged weed, yellow water lillies and all those classic swim features that got the heart beating when you were a kid after the tench (even though its no deeper than about 3ft). Maybe that has something to do with it.
bennygesserit
Well-known member
Some "facts" about signals
They can spread at a river rate of 1.2 km per year , or faster via damp nets
They carry a parasite that affects native crayfish which affects their muscles making them 30 % slower and therefore less able to compete for food
Their predators in the UK are otters , eels and salmon , though where they cohabit with Salmon par they seem to have a negative effect on the Salmon.
So maybe otters are the answer to our crayfish problem ? If only it were as simple as that , remember rabbits overrunning Australia ?
Its my belief that Apex predators have inbuilt behavior patterns to prevent them overrunning their prey mainly by being territorial whereas prey species usually are subject to other factors and are in balance with the eco systems they have evolved into , not perfectly otherwise we would never get any change , but almost perfectly.
They can spread at a river rate of 1.2 km per year , or faster via damp nets
They carry a parasite that affects native crayfish which affects their muscles making them 30 % slower and therefore less able to compete for food
Their predators in the UK are otters , eels and salmon , though where they cohabit with Salmon par they seem to have a negative effect on the Salmon.
So maybe otters are the answer to our crayfish problem ? If only it were as simple as that , remember rabbits overrunning Australia ?
Its my belief that Apex predators have inbuilt behavior patterns to prevent them overrunning their prey mainly by being territorial whereas prey species usually are subject to other factors and are in balance with the eco systems they have evolved into , not perfectly otherwise we would never get any change , but almost perfectly.
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