Guiding - A question

pointngo · Aug 13, 2014

I see fishing guides advertising all over the place, and know one or two who offer trips on several different places, but do they need permission to operate as guides on any given water?

I'd always assumed that they would have to get it but quite a few just operate without any sort of permission. Does anyone know the Law regarding this?

Something else related; some claim to have full insurance for Clients but if they haven't got permission to operate as a guide, wouldn't that invalidate any insurance, assuming they have any in place to start with?

sam vimes · Aug 13, 2014

As long as the guide and guided have the relavent club memberships, day tickets etc, I can't see there being any issue at all. It's not a million miles away from someone taking a mate and giving advice. The difference being that the advice had better be good when the angling "mate" is being paid for it.

thecrow · Aug 13, 2014

IMO guides can be responsible for putting pressure on waters, to be successful the client will be taken to a fishery that should produce the goods for the paying client, after the trip the client is free to give information out to anyone leading to more pressure.

Some waters/fish may be able to take the extra pressure but some certainly are not, Pike for instance.

As for having to have permission I would think some clubs would frown on guiding without permission others might not, maybe the guide pays the controlling club.

Peter Jacobs · Aug 13, 2014

Without the benefit research I would suggest that providing the relevant permissions have been obtained, via the controlling clubs or Riparian Owners, then their actions are entirely legal.

Individual clubs or associations may have a local rule regarding guiding in which case those too should be observed.

As far as any Insurances are concerned then they would, in all probability, only be valid while undertaking legal activities, but much would depend on the individual clauses contained within the policies.

Probably not the complete answer you were looking for I'm afraid.

pointngo · Aug 13, 2014

sam vimes said:
As long as the guide and guided have the relavent club memberships, day tickets etc, I can't see there being any issue at all. It's not a million miles away from someone taking a mate and giving advice. The difference being that the advice had better be good when the angling "mate" is being paid for it.

that's the way a lot of them seem to operate Sam but they are effectively running a business using someone else's property, without permission (which may invalidate any insurance claim that they offer clients, never mind deliberately duping the Clients into believing they are insured).

Mr Crow, you might be right about paying the controlling club.. I wonder if that is the case. Although it certainly isn't with the guides I know.

Good post Peter and it reflects my thoughts.

sam vimes · Aug 13, 2014

pointngo said:
that's the way a lot of them seem to operate Sam but they are effectively running a business using someone else's property, without permission (which may invalidate any insurance claim that they offer clients).

Perhaps it does, but I don't suppose that many using such services will care. In the unlikely event that I ever look for guiding, I'm not sure that I'd be bothered about a guide having insurance any more than I am about having personal indemnity angling cover.

Peter Jacobs · Aug 13, 2014

pointngo said:
that's the way a lot of them seem to operate Sam but they are effectively running a business using someone else's property, without permission (which may invalidate any insurance claim that they offer clients).

Hhhhmmmn, not sure I would agree with you on that.

Conversely I might argue that they are simply gaining financial benefit from their Intellectual Property Rights; being their knowledge of the venues, their developed methods, styles or baits . . . . . . . etc.

Again, the individual Insurance Policy will, or should have, a relevant caveat regarding legality of activity.

Is there any difference then say for a trucking company running a business on the highways, where I am pretty sure they don't have the relevant thousands of agreements in place?

thecrow · Aug 13, 2014

Needs a guide to tell us how they carry their guiding out.

pointngo · Aug 13, 2014

Peter Jacobs said:
Hhhhmmmn, not sure I would agree with you on that.

Conversely I might argue that they are simply gaining financial benefit from their Intellectual Property Rights; being their knowledge of the venues, their developed methods, styles or baits . . . . . . . etc.

Again, the individual Insurance Policy will, or should have, a relevant caveat regarding legality of activity.

Is there any difference then say for a trucking company running a business on the highways, where I am pretty sure they don't have the relevant thousands of agreements in place?

not sure which bit you disagree with Peter.. the "lot of" or operating on others property, but I think you'd have your work cut out trying to claim Intellectual Property Rights.

On one water I fish a Guide has been operating for years even though he has been told several times by the Bailiff that he isn't allowed to do it as it is Public Land. He also, as do several others, guides on sections of rivers controlled by clubs without ever asking for permission. I've no idea how it works on roads but it'd surprise me if tax or fees aren't charged to commercial enterprises.

I've got no gripe either way but it just doesn't seem the right way to go about things to me.

A guides input would be very relevant.

peter crabtree · Aug 13, 2014

Unless the guide wears a big badge with 'guide' written on it, how could a bailiff for instance know he was guiding?

thecrow · Aug 13, 2014

peter crabtree said:
Unless the guide wears a big badge with 'guide' written on it, how could a bailiff for instance know he was guiding?

I have seen someone guiding on a river I fish, I knew he was a guide as I had seen his advertisement on line and also knew he took guests onto the club stretch I was fishing, a phone call stopped it, I have never seen him on the stretch again, he is probably doing the same thing on another clubs waters.

Many other guides faces are known by those fishing the waters.

nicepix · Aug 13, 2014

I seem to remember that Ray Walton had problems on the Hampshire Avon where the fishery owners took umbrage at his activities. Perhaps he will pop in to enlighten us.

peter crabtree · Aug 13, 2014

thecrow said:
I have seen someone guiding on a river I fish, I knew he was a guide as I had seen his advertisement on line and also knew he took guests onto the club stretch I was fishing, a phone call stopped it, I have never seen him on the stretch again, he is probably doing the same thing on another clubs waters.

Many other guides faces are known by those fishing the waters.

Do these guides and their guests actually fish. Or are they just guiding people to the good swims?

terry m · Aug 13, 2014

Many guides use boats, punts or similar. Guiding on the Broads is a good example. In those circumstances indemnities most certainly should be in place.

Whether people choose to recognise it or not, the fact is that the guide is offering a service whilst he is in his workplace, so a duty of care is owed.

binka · Aug 13, 2014

terry m said:
Many guides use boats, punts or similar. Guiding on the Broads is a good example. In those circumstances indemnities most certainly should be in place.

Whether people choose to recognise it or not, the fact is that the guide is offering a service whilst he is in his workplace, so a duty of care is owed.

This whole subject raises a myriad of questions and issues...

I wonder if a general Public Liability insurance, as taken up by many small businesses, would cover any eventuality given that a "client" is just that and not considered a member of the general public?

A case of buyer beware, check the credentials... Perhaps?

geoffmaynard · Aug 13, 2014

I know a few guides and others who describe themselves as an angling coach. All are very careful to have all insurance up to date and are very particular about insisting that all rules of the water are adhered to. It's not in their interest to get a bad reputation with clients or with those controlling the waters. The clubs, riperian owners etc don't mind at all - it's another day ticket sold and another happy customer at the end of the day.
I use guides all the time when I go fishing abroad, I see nothing but good from it. The guides are usually part-timers, running it as a 'hobby-business' with a proper job on the side as their main income.

hyperdrive · Aug 14, 2014

pointngo said:
I've no idea how it works on roads but it'd surprise me if tax or fees aren't charged to commercial enterprises.

Haulage companies etc pay the road tax for their vehicles at a much higher rate than a private car (in the thousands) and they also have an operators licence that needs to be paid for. In addition they have public liability insurance and Employers liability insurance (unless it's an owner driver for the latter)

---------- Post added at 19:05 ---------- Previous post was at 19:03 ----------

binka said:
I wonder if a general Public Liability insurance, as taken up by many small businesses, would cover any eventuality given that a "client" is just that and not considered a member of the general public?

Public liability insurance with the correct clauses should cover the client the same way as companies have theirs to cover sub contractors etc.

It goes without saying though that they should have permission from whoever controls the water or owns the land.

thecrow · Aug 14, 2014

peter crabtree said:
Do these guides and their guests actually fish. Or are they just guiding people to the good swims?

Guest fishes the guide does not.

mick b · Aug 14, 2014

I have managed waters and land and had to deal with quite a few 'guides' on occasions.

A fishery is usually established and run as a 'Recreational Facility' and as such cannot be used for Private Gain unless the owner receives some form of recompense.
No Riparian Owner renting fishing to an Angling Club would agree to a the Club allowing a third party to run a business on the rented water without some form of agreement and further payment.

I never allowed Guides or Instructors of any sort to operate unless they were working for a Charity, all but one stopped the moment they were approached, many offering to sign and pay the rental agreement for the day in return for permission to continue.
The only person who became an habitual offender was only stopped after I sent a letter to his Chief Constable.

I never even permitted Professional Photographers to operate unless they signed an agreement and I received payment.
......

Pointngo is right, intellectual copyright is nigh on impossible to establish, as I know to my loss.

.

terry m · Aug 14, 2014

thecrow said:
Guest fishes the guide does not.

Often the case but not always.

Guiding - A question

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