Silver Crucian

bleak · Oct 5, 2014

Can a large Crucian carp be silver? entirely...

---------- Post added at 21:02 ---------- Previous post was at 20:59 ----------

photo to follow.

nicepix · Oct 5, 2014

I've had very light coloured ones from brackish water at Marans but they still have a bronze tinge to their backs, head and fins.

There is also a species called a Prussian Carp that resembles a Crucian and can be almost totally silver with darker fins.

greenie62 · Oct 5, 2014

bleak said:
Can a large Crucian carp be silver? entirely...photo to follow.

The Crucian Website says:

The so-called gibel carp or silver crucian does not occur in this country as far as is known. Fish in the UK with those names have been genetically tested and found to be crucian x goldfish hybrids.

Are we talking UK or en France?

bleak · Oct 6, 2014

..sorry but the picture that I took of these fish are badly over exposed,so there is no point in posting.....I shall go and try and catch another one. I have never carried weighing scales but these fish looked to be about 4-5 pounds, big scales, no barbules, very deep bodied, thick, thick tail and move in shoals.......and this is in France

john step · Oct 6, 2014

I would be very interested to find out when you get to the bottom of this. I have caught many of these fish in France. To all appearances they are silver crucians but no one seemed to know when I tried to find out.

I caught them in the South of France from The Rhone and the canal that links it across the Camargue and up the West coast. The nearest I got was " carasan" or something similar which at the time I presumed was a French name of crucian?

There were large numbers and they seemed to prefer water moving quicker than our crucians. I caught many of them trotting in the same spots I caught barbel as well as stationary canal swims. They were mostly about 2lbs or so and judging by the fact yours was 5lb they were obviously not crucians.
Very strange

greenie62 · Oct 6, 2014

bleak said:
..sorry but the picture that I took of these fish are badly over exposed,so there is no point in posting.....I shall go and try and catch another one. I have never carried weighing scales but these fish looked to be about 4-5 pounds, big scales, no barbules, very deep bodied, thick, thick tail and move in shoals.......and this is in France

Thanks Bleak,
The info I've dug out on the Gibel Crucian says that in Europe they grow up to 3Kgs - pity the piccy is not postable but can you get a lateral scale count from it? The Gibel has 27-32 scales along the lateral line - whereas a Tru Cru has 32-34.
Sounds like you've got some fun with these over there - just don't bring any over here

- we've got enough problems with our own Crucian stocks being interbred / hybridised with consequent identification problems!
Tight Lines!

---------- Post added at 09:30 ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 ----------

john step said:
........The nearest I got was " carasan" or something similar which at the time I presumed was a French name of crucian? .......

Hi John,
"Carasan" may be derived from the Latin genus Carassius which Cru's and Gibel both belong to.

rubio · Oct 6, 2014

Carassio is a particular breed of carp innit? Very similar to Crucians but not quite the same. Prussian carp?

greenie62 · Oct 6, 2014

rubio said:
Carassio is a particular breed of carp innit? Very similar to Crucians but not quite the same. Prussian carp?

They are all part of the family Cyprinidae but belong to different genus and are thus different species:
Carassius genus
- Prussian Carp = Carassius gibelio
- Crucian Carp = Carassius carassius
Cyprinus genus
- Common Carp = Cyprinus carpio

Here endeth the Latin & Biology lessons!

nicepix · Oct 6, 2014

This is one of the fellahs I caught in the town centre at Marans near to La Rochelle in south-west France. I had some more from a saline channel just outside the town that runs to La Rochelle.

I believe it to be a light coloured Crucian. It's certainly much lighter than the ones I got back in Yorkshire.

bleak · Oct 6, 2014

That fish looks very much like the ones I have caught, the only difference appears to be mine are much lighter ( more silver) in colour. The other interesting thing is that in the past years hundreds of them seem to die all in the same month. not this year though.

john step · Oct 6, 2014

nicepix, just googled marans on their maps. What a lot of waterways.

nicepix · Oct 6, 2014

john step said:
nicepix, just googled marans on their maps. What a lot of waterways.

It is an ancient inland port much like Boston. The area around it was drained from around the 12th century and the drainage progressed inland for another few hundred years. As such much of the water from thousands of square kilometres of Marais Poitevin is evacuated towards the Atlantic via the drain that runs through Marans to La Rochelle. The main drain resembles the Gt. Ouse or Welland.

The complicated system means that there are varying degrees of salinity in the drains and canals. Within the town centre itself you can find roach, chub, bream, crucians, zander, wels catfish, mullet and bass in the same place.

I go there for a few days at a time, usually when Little Wife has gone back to visit family and friends. I can park the camper on a quiet road that runs alongside one of the canals in town and have a choice of restaurants and fishing within a few minutes walk. The last bit is handy as my old dog isn't up to long walks these days

I caught that crucian in a small quay "The Quay of Horses" a watering place that was built using stones from Canada that were used to ballast the ships bringing beaver furs to France. On the return journey they carried heavy barrels of salt harvested locally and so didn't need the stone ballast.

It is well worth a visit if you are travelling through France.

john step · Oct 6, 2014

I will put that on my list of places to visit next time. Ta.

greenie62 · Oct 6, 2014

Hi NicePix,
The one you appended the following to:

I believe it to be a light coloured Crucian. It's certainly much lighter than the ones I got back in Yorkshire.

- I'm sorry but it ain't a Cru, it's got too few scales along it's lateral line (I count 27 rather than 32-34) and too few on the diagonal between dorsal to Lateral line (I reckon 6 rather than 7-8) - also it's caudal fin looks too forked - they are usually flatter more like a tench's tail. Quite possibly a Gibel or a Cru hybrid.
Counting the Lateral line scales is a pain when you are trying to get them back in the water quickly - they always flip when they hear "19, 20, 21..." - "Bu88er.. 1, 2, 3,....."!

Tight Lines!

nicepix · Oct 6, 2014

john step said:
I will put that on my list of places to visit next time. Ta.

Also worth a visit are the Ile de Re and Ile de Oleron. Two small islands just offshore that have salt pans and oyster lagoons fed by small creeks that are full of mullet in periods of high tide. Marans is a bit shabby-chic whereas Re & Oleron are very pretty places but better visited outside the August holiday period.

nicepix · Oct 7, 2014

greenie62 said:
Hi NicePix,
The one you appended the following to:
- I'm sorry but it ain't a Cru, it's got too few scales along it's lateral line (I count 27 rather than 32-34) and too few on the diagonal between dorsal to Lateral line (I reckon 6 rather than 7-8) - also it's caudal fin looks too forked - they are usually flatter more like a tench's tail. Quite possibly a Gibel or a Cru hybrid.
Counting the Lateral line scales is a pain when you are trying to get them back in the water quickly - they always flip when they hear "19, 20, 21..." - "Bu88er.. 1, 2, 3,....."!
Tight Lines!

Thanks. I'll take your word for it.

john step · Oct 7, 2014

nicepix said:
Also worth a visit are the Ile de Re and Ile de Oleron. Two small islands just offshore that have salt pans and oyster lagoons fed by small creeks that are full of mullet in periods of high tide. Marans is a bit shabby-chic whereas Re & Oleron are very pretty places but better visited outside the August holiday period.

Thanks
I will note them also. Marans might be a bit shabby -chic. Probably suit me as I am just shabby without the chic bit!!

nicepix · Oct 7, 2014

john step said:
Thanks
I will note them also. Marans might be a bit shabby -chic. Probably suit me as I am just shabby without the chic bit!!

If you do go out there drop me a PM and I'll give you some more info'. The maze of canals and drains are quite complicated and take some working out.

bleak · Oct 8, 2014

After seeing the name Prussian carp I googled images and now am pretty sure that the Prussian is the one. Thanks to this great forum I have an almost certain answer to an old question.
Has anybody got any idea as to why these fish would die in large numbers all in the same month.. August and all around 4 pounds. More of a mystery because these fish are recognised as tough..

nicepix · Oct 8, 2014

Possibly post-spawning stresses?

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