Interesting story ..

greenie62

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Hi folks
found this story on Birth Control Pills Threaten Fish Stocks - Slashdot.
Experimental research has shown that small amounts of estrogen in waste water can lead to rapid large-scale changes in fish populations. ...
This Canadian report then goes on to note that this has been a concern for over 10 years and quotes a further article from a few years ago:
"The Washington Post is carrying a story about how male bass in the Potomac river are actually producing eggs. The source of this interesting phenomena is currently unknown. Scientists are speculating that it may have something to do with chicken estrogen left over in manure or perhaps even human hormones dumped in the river from sewage treatment plants. Scientists aren't sure if the affected fish are still able to reproduce and the long-term repercussions of this find are unknown."

The EA are aware of these studies and have monitored Oestrogen levels in Water Treatment facilities in the UK for some years but I've not seen anything published here yet!
 

laguna

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Its long been hypothesized that it effects fish fertility and reproduction, mortality... here's one with dropsy I caught last week on a little maggot

14260213384_5efd6f8fcb_m.jpg
 

Merv Harrison

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Chris, have PM'd you re peg location :)

Many years ago this did get a great deal of coverage in the Angling press, and if I remember correctly, Barbel were deemed the most vulnerable, even supposedly changing sex.
 

mick b

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The EA are aware of these studies and have monitored Oestrogen levels in Water Treatment facilities in the UK for some years but I've not seen anything published here yet!


No you wont.....because they cannot do anything about it!

I used to fish a large lake that was fed directly with the 'treated' water from a sewage farm.
This lake had a large population of double figure Pike, a seriously large population, I managed over twenty a day on several occasions.
But it was nigh on impossible to catch a single fish under 10lbs, infact over more than twenty years I only caught around half a dozen.

My work took me into direct contact with all the authorities and several waste management scientists told me this lake had been receiving large concentrations of oestrogen ever since the birth pill went on sale.

Doesn't take much thought to work that one out does it?
(Or where to look to find similar waters).
 

greenie62

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No you wont.....because they cannot do anything about it!
...

My work took me into direct contact with all the authorities and several waste management scientists told me this lake had been receiving large concentrations of oestrogen ever since the birth pill went on sale.
....

'Spose what we could do with is some central body representing Anglers to put in a Freedom of Information request to force the EA to publish the information - any ideas who we could Trust with such a task? ;):rolleyes::eek:mg:
 

mick b

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'Spose what we could do with is some central body representing Anglers to put in a Freedom of Information request to force the EA to publish the information - any ideas who we could Trust with such a task? ;):rolleyes::eek:mg:



Actually there is a multitude of compounds that we use in our daily lives that are impossible to remove from our waste.
I expect the information is out there if you look hard enough.


However Mushrooms and horsesh1t do come to mind.....


.
 

greenie62

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...
However Mushrooms and horsesh1t do come to mind......

Agreed Mick,
However the scientific report I quoted from in an earlier article:
Scientists are speculating that it may have something to do with chicken estrogen left over in manure
mentioned chicken manure rather than Horse manure! ;):eek:mg:
 

The bad one

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Nothing new to this story the facts have been known since the mid 90s Prof Sumpter at Briston did most of the work on fish intersexing. Others Dr Paul Warhurst FOE and Dr Joblin have highlighted and continues the Prof's work.
In early in 00s I wrote an article for Specialist Angler (NASA's Mag) on the subject and reproduced the text on on here somewhere around 2008 and again in 2011. I've kept a watching brief over this issue for over 20 years and still do.
As in my view it's the biggest threat to fish stocks riverine and sea we have because all the substances end up in the rivers and oceans ultimately.

Mick is right there is a plethera of every day substances that are know endocrine disruptors and at the lasts count there were 230 known, with many more suspected.

Where I slightly diverge from Mick is that there are things that can be done (end of pipe solution granted) they can be screened out through active carbon filtration but first you need the political will and the money to do it. And as they only affect fish the politicos don't give a toss do they?
But they don't, they impact on all lifeforms, including man!
 
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laguna

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I should like to read your article Phil, and agree that active charcoal would be the solution to filter including reverse osmosis systems to clean but as you know they're very expensive to implement - similar in cost to the conversion of seawater into freshwater systems used in areas lacking natural freshwater resources. Estrogens are indeed a big concern for the environment and humans too, as is antidepressants and probably a myriad of other OTC meds including steroidal meds flushed and pi**ed down the toilet without concern or thought. No different I suppose to consuming meat with growth hormones and inocs given to dairy cows, pigs and god knows what else we carnivorous types unknowingly eat these days.
 

mick b

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Hi badone, not knowing your real name I didn't conect you to the NASA article, I have all my old magazines so will look it up and read it.

Ive actually seen several 'end of pipe' collection stations with the material being removed from the sites in glass acid carbouys, to where I never asked.

We are very slowly killing our planet, something future generations will not thank us for.

.
 

chub_on_the_block

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I could be wrong but i believe the intersex issue was first flagged up with Roach in the River Lee - a river that is composed almost entirely by treated effluent. Infact as you get to the middle/lower reaches the river water will have passed through a human about six times.
 

The bad one

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If I remember correctly Ray Walton (Rolling Pin Boy) flagged the issue up on the Lea with barbel having more barbels than they should have. Again I think I'm right in saying, he got the Prof interested in the subject. He being an Endocronologist, then stated looking at the impacts on several fish species. Dr Joblin was one of his PhD students at the time and gained her, as it is a she (her first name I can't remember), PhD on the back of the research she did in conjunction with the Prof. I clearly remember they looked at roach on the Trent below Stoke Bardolph sewage outflow and found about 70% of the stock looked at showed signs of intersexing. They may well have looked at roach on the Lea as well, I really can't remember.

Thanks Mick for opening up that can of worms :(
"Ive actually seen several 'end of pipe' collection stations with the material being removed from the sites in glass acid carbouys, to where I never asked."
Special Waste Landfills, Incineration, both of which create or emit endocrine disruptors into the environment, as they are not closed loop systems. :(
The problem is so big and widespread, the powers that be stick their heads up their arses in the hope they'll go away or people won't notice what's happening.

---------- Post added at 17:00 ---------- Previous post was at 16:03 ----------

As Chris asked, here the article or more correctly the text that I put up on the site.
There were some drawings of how the lock and key mechanism worked but the didn't appear in the text.

First Published in the National Association of Specialist Anglers Magazine, Specialist Angler 2000

Table 1.
Substance Example Uses
Natural
Female sex hormones
Phytoestrogens
oestradiol;
oestrone;
oestrogen;

Isoflavones; lignans; coumestans
produced naturally in animals and humans.
*possible excretion through use of the pill.
Present in plant material such as cabbage, sprouts and Soya beans.
Man-made
Polychlorinated organic compounds

Organochlorine
Organotins
Alkylphenol
Ethoxylates
Phthalates
Bi-phenolic compounds
Synthetic Steroids

dioxins;
PCBs
DDT; dieldrin; lindane; pesticides
Tributyltin
Nonylphenol
ethoxylate
Dibutyl phthalate (DBP) and butylbenzyl phthalate (BBP)
Bisphenol-A
Erhinyl oestradiol

By-products of incineration and indusrial processes
PCBs are no longer manufactured but some equipment still in use containes them. *Such equipment that did contain them may also have been landfilled.
Insecticiedes (some now banned or phased out) used in *crop spraying and sheep dips.
anti-fouling agent used on boats.
Used in wool scouring; laundaries; car washes; plasticiser.
Platiciers; used in some paints, lacquers; pesticides
Polycarbonate plastics and epoxy resins; pipe linings; cans; teath filling.
Contraceptives and hormone replacement therapy (HRT)
Source; EA’s Northern Catch Magazine Spring 1998 * denotes authors inclusions.

Endocrine Disrupting Substances (EDSs)

So what are EDSs?.
EDSs are substances that can, and do interfere with the hormonal system of fish. There are two chemical source points - Natural and Man-made. Table 1., lists some of the chemicals in both categories, known to have disrupting effects. It must be appreciated, the science and understanding in this field is new. Therefore, the list below contains only the known ones at the time of writing. Other chemicals/substances will over time, be added to the list as scientific knowledge and understanding increases.

The Endocrine System and how it work
The endocrine system consists of endocrine glands in the body of higher organisms. There are nine in the human body - hypothalamus brain thyroid gland throat testis are to list three in particular. Each gland releases hormones (a chemical message produced by one set of cells that affects other sets of cells) directly into the bloodstream. The hormones then circulate in the bloodstream until they lock into the target cells, much the same as a key fits a lock. An example of this would be testosterone released by the testes that has many functions (Saturday night fighting stuff this, in young males after 10 pints of lager) thought to be responsible for sex drive and muscle formation amongst others. (Apologies to the biologists and physiologists for over simplifying this section.)
The take away point, is that hormones operate in a lock and key procedure and are target specific. The hormone being the key and the receptor cell being the lock. Suffice to say that a particular hormone will only fit the cell or group of cells that it is intended for. The understanding of this principle is critical to what follows.

How EDSs Work?
EDSs act as false hormonal keys (hormone mimics) and/or hormone blockers that enter the cell and stop the true hormone entering the locking mechanism. In regards to fish, the effect this has is to block and/or stop the femininising or masculising process. Suffice to say, they feminise males and masculinise females.( known as intersexing) The evidence for this manifesting itself in the form of males showing signs of egg formation and females developing rudimentary testes development.

How EDSs getting into the water Environment
The route is multi-pathway - sewage outflows, atmospheric fallout and landfill leachate to list the three main ones.
Sewage outflows are released from sewage plants via the filtered water return sluice/pipe back into the river systems. The problem with this is two fold, no EDS stripping takes place in the sewage plant and the foulwater drainage system take both domestic and industrial effluent. This results in many EDS’s being released into the rivers. In low flow rates (Summer) it’s likely that the quantities are quite high. Research carried out some years ago on the Warwickshire Avon found that sewage discharge water made up 80% of the water volume. It is also likely that many other rivers that run through major conurbations have the same percentage quantities.
It is therefore likely that this route contain all forms of EDSs as there is an inter-connectivity to the ones that appear below.

Atmospheric fallout comes from a multiplicity of emission sources to air - industrial processes, vehicles emissions, incineration of domestic waste and others. Dioxins are the most important EDSs via this route. The permitted particulate quantities (Yes there are permitted amounts that can be released to air) settling on buildings, road, land, etc. In heavy rains these are washed off into the storm drain system that enter directly into the rivers with little or no processing. It is my opinion that the quantities of dioxins entering the river systems are likely to rise over the next 10-20 years due to recent Government pronouncements. They (Government) would like to see 160 new large incinerators built nationally, to tackle the waste problem and the impending EU directives on landfilling.
Again there are regulations on air emissions for incinerators. However, some quantities of dioxins are released to air (Space doesn’t allow me to go into more detail.).
Landfill leachate enters the river systems and some stillwaters (Yes stillwater anglers it’s your problem as well!) by direct and indirect leaching - streams, brooks, rivers, water table and groundwater. Historically landfills came into being because there was an available hole in the ground created through some form of extraction for minerals - shale, gravel, clay, rock, etc. Large number of these being found, in, or near river valleys with the above connections to a major river system. Until the late 70s early 80s most were not lined or had any ground engineering works to avoid leaching. Compounding the problem, before the above date, co-disposal of domestic and potentially toxic waste took place routinely. A study of landfills nationally in the early 90s by Friends of the Earth, found that 1300 waste tips were seeping poisons into the ground water. Clearly then, many substances containing EDSs were disposed of in such tips, one of the most serious being PCB’s. What is not known about this type of co-disposal, is the chemical reaction between the many substances when subjected to long-term heating as happens in landfills.
Modern engineered landfills are not immune from emitting EDSs as the aqueous discharge from them is collected on site in an underground storage tank, which at a later date, tankered off to the sewage plant for processing (no stripping remember) and final disposal. The water being returned to the river system, and some of the sewage sludge being used on agricultural and low-grade land as fertilizer. However, because of the levels of contamination of the sludge with heavy metals etc., regulations have be brought in on how much can be used on such land. Inevitably though, some run off from the treated land is likely to occur, which in turn will enter the surrounding watercourses and connecting river(s) adding to the EDSs load of them.

Effects on fishlife
There is now overwhelming evidence starting to emerge that intersexing of river fish is a reality, along with other aquatic life forms. American studies have found intersexing in turtles, alligators, otters, birds as well as fish. At a recent meeting I attended, it was stated that of the rivers tested by the EA, “Not a single river showed signs of no intersexing in the fish stocks analysed.” The problem being most acute down flow of any sewage discharge points. With a 30 - 100 % totality of samples.
You don’t have to be a genius to work out that on the heavily urbanised river systems with many sewage outflows and other point sources, the whole river and stock may be affected. This has dire consequences for all life forms (including humans) reliant on that river. Intersex fish do not reproduce. Therefore the natural stock recruitment is likely to be poor at best, and potentially nil in very low flow years. Therefore, the intersex stock of that river is likely to have less competition for food, subsequently waxing fat on the available supply. It is also known that mammals that are castrated increase their body weight rapidly afterwards. Whether the same is true of fish is not known. However, if it is the case, this along with the above may well account for some of the large fish being caught from urbanised rivers.
Clearly, over the short-term such occurrences are great for the big fish anglers. However, over the long-term it is likely to be a catastrophe for all anglers, as the only way to replace the stock lost in the worst affected rivers, will be by mass stocking programmes. Such programmes will cost anglers, either through their club or rod licence fees. Needless to say, there would be no guarantees that such programmes would be successful, as only the symptoms of the disease is being treated. The cure therefore lies in the removal of EDSs from the whole environment and not just the water environment.
Ask yourself this question, “Do you really want to fish a boom and bust system on a 5-10 year cycle. Or do you want sustainable fish stocks of all sizes, on all river systems?”

Postscript
Whilst this article is perhaps depressing to read, there is some light at the end of the tunnel. The EA are drawing up Environmental Quality Standards (EQSs) for some of the known substances (these have now been drawn up. phil 2001). They are also committed to what is known as the UK’s Biodiversity Action Plan for Sustainable River Systems (includes fish). In my view, their effectiveness on both counts will only be as good as the pressure we bring to bare on them.
You know the script, Write to MP, MEP, Sec. of State. The louder we shout the more notice and action we’ll get.
 

kenpm

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A fairly recent study into Bream in the Erne system in Northern Ireland showed only a handful of male fish in a sample of over 600 mature fish which probably explains the explosion of Hybrids recently.
There is a hatchery producing Bream fry to counteract this I was also told.
 
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