thanks chris you have been a great help, i will be over the moon to get a thirty,i have been going through a bad spell at mo,me and the oldman went to menards fishies in east sussex ,spent a week there and only had 2x 19lb and a koi of 14lb,my dad had a 29lb and 18lb and a 25lb was really pleased for him "i think lol" the worst was still to come ,a bloke moved in to the swim next to me and cast in to reeds right where my bait was ,so after half hour later he broke free his rig must have been inches from mine ,he then started to reel in ,he only made three turns on the reel and foul hooked the lake record of 52lb in the tale took the bloke a well over a hour to get it,i was guted to think how close i was to that fish, never mind though onwards and upwards, thanks again chris your a top bloke /forum/smilies/smile_smiley.gifsorry another question how many kg of boilles should i take ?