Do you want to lose the will to live?

If you do have a read of this Saga on Northern Monkeys carp site. Those who are carp averse best not read it as you may not be able to stand the the blood pressure coming to boiling point at some of the comments.

angler in court - North West Carp Forum

Some of the comments really make you wonder about the mentality of some people...let alone the bloke that is being prosecuted for it. Maybe they just get so obsessed about catching the biggest carp in Tatton that its overides any common sense or respect for private property.
Tatton Park and the National Trust have every right to run the fishing rights as they see fit and if that means no night fishing and an out of bounds area then there you go.
If the accused gets convicted and proven guilty surely any club or syndicate that he's a member of should give him a show cause notice as to why he should retain his membership ? If he cant follow rules on one water and is blatantly breaking them on Tatton then why will he adhere to rules anywhere else ? (would depend on constitution and rules of clubs i suppose)
I think i read a couple of years ago a carper caught the 2 x big carp in Tatton from the OOB area. He originally claimed he got them legit but was caught out and fessed up to all and sundry (including Tatton Estate) Dont think it was taken any further.
If this gets into the too hard basket and they dont feel the law will back them it wouldnt surprise me if National Trust ban fishing in the lake full stop , i cant see it being a big money spinner for them anyway.

The mian problem here is the total lack of respect for the laws. Comments suggesting that its a 'grey area' 'not doing any harm' etc. This attitute is rife throughout society these days and the authorities don't help by letting them get away with it. The Police and EA bailiffs are only concerned with criminal behaviour (theft of fishing rights being criminal) because they simply don't have the staff to deal with anything else, yet civil offenses on my river outnumber criminal ones by an order of magnitude. In recent discussions with my local area EA bailiffs I discovered that not a single prosecution has taken place in the last decade with regard to e.g. disturbance of fish spawning etc - which is rife with all the canoes in this area operating in very shallow water. I understand that the EA have now increased it's bailiff Nos from 3 to 4, which is still a joke looking at the geographical area they have to cover. Compare this with the 30 guys doing the job in the 70s. Our main hope now is the ATr's Voluntary Bailiff organisation will continue to expand to put some order back into the anarchy which has taken over on so many of our waters.

I'm not surprised in the slightest. "Guesting", as a euphemism for poaching, has been common parlance for quite a while. I'm afraid that similar attitudes are common enough throughout angling and often seen on forums. In the last week, I've seen a thread on a forum where a poster asked where he could fish on a river. Some advised him to find out who the riparian owners were. Many just said he should fish it regardless and see if anyone said anything.
The irony is that a good proportion of the anglers, that think "guesting" is acceptable, would be foaming at the mouth at the prospect of an eastern european being caught on their waters. They can't have it all ends up.

It never ceases to amaze me how skewed peoples attitudes towards right and wrong can be depending on their personal viewpoints.

What this bloke did is obviously wrong and outside of the rules governing that water and the resulting capture is not valid; to try and argue otherwise is perverse.

The fact that it has been widely lauded in the angling press and on his sponsors website just shows how far down the slippery slope of commercialism and minor celebrity the sport has gone.

It's everywhere - BBC News - The students who feel they have the right to cheat - the sense of entitlement, the double-speak and double-think, the black is white and the wrong is right.

As I said to my "imaginary" old school mate and a few other friends, one of them a writer and fisher, in an email the other day, concerning a lot of modern Angling - "I remain, Fishy Sirs, magnificently aloof and forever unavailable."

Just 2 pages in and I just gave up.

As Master Joda says:




A life they should be getting maybe . . . . . .


It never ceases to amaze me however that the Internet can become a gateway to such unlimited ignorance . . . . . . and quite the opposite of its design intentions

There was a thread on here not too long ago with a clip showing some lads making a video and fishing out of bounds on a park lake before being confronted by a member of the public.

It's against the rules plain and simple and gives Anglers and Angling a bad name, in such circumstances where fishing is withdrawn as a consequence of it the vast majority of innocent, rule abiding fisherman are the ones who suffer needlessly.

Any capture under these circumstances is completely illegitimate in my opinion.

I've never heard of the guy concerned but hope that come February a precedent is set by way of a successful prosecution, if only to get the message across to other anglers who practice the same behaviour.

sam vimes said:

I'm not surprised in the slightest. "Guesting", as a euphemism for poaching, has been common parlance for quite a while...

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This seems to have been a change in the English language recently that I must have missed!
I always thought that "Guesting" was the accompanied fishing of a Club Water with a Club Member who has obtained a Day Permit for your use. Some Clubs make a charge for this - others allow members to bring a limited number of guests per season as part of their annual fees - some even require guests to 'share' a rod with the member eek: - No Laughing at the back!).

The only 'grey' area I've ever encountered over "guesting" is when the host is taking you to a water that is being fished on a 'club exchange ticket' basis - normally this can be sorted with a phone call to the Membership Secretary of the appropriate club.

The use of "Guesting" as a euphemism for poaching smacks of a condesending attitude by the 'poacher' in that they feel the RO should be honoured to have them "Guesting" on the water!

Whoever came up with this idea for re-defining "Guesting" should be taken out and strung-up by their ....... etc.

Google "The Black Mirror Colnemere", you'll find plenty of reference to people "guesting" on what was by then a no fishing SSI. Sadly, there are plenty of big names in carp fishing circles that have made their names (or cemented/enhanced them) by "guesting" and/or moving fish from one water to another. Amazingly, plenty even admit to such activities in books, magazine articles, videos etc. I'm actually surprised that more have escaped prosecution. This particular case, arguably less serious than some, could open the floodgates if successful. Whilst I don't know the individual concerned, nor wish him ill, this case probably needs to be successful for the benefit of angling as a whole. Its failure will be a nightmare for riparian owners as the likelihood of police involvement and successful future poaching prosecutions diminish if he gets away with it.

However, before folks start castigating carpers as the root of all evil, similar illegal activities go on with regards to other species. Plenty of similar tales to be found amongst the barbel and predator worlds. Just look to the distinct possibility that match anglers were responsible for Yorkshire barbel growing legs and ending up in the Ribble many years ago. Look at the distinctly unnatural spread of zander and catfish between otherwise unconnected waters.

It seems that many actually laud such activities, seeing the perpetrators as some kind of latter day Robin Hood type figures. It's in a similar vein to those that still celebrate the likes of the Krays.

One thing is for sure, many waters would not be as they are today (or were, in some cases) without the distinctly dubious activities of a minority.

sam vimes said:

Google "The Black Mirror Colnemere", you'll find plenty of reference to people "guesting" on what was by then a no fishing SSI. Sadly, there are plenty of big names in carp fishing circles that have made their names (or cemented/enhanced them) by "guesting" and/or moving fish from one water to another. Amazingly, plenty even admit to such activities in books, magazine articles, videos etc. I'm actually surprised that more have escaped prosecution. This particular case, arguably less serious than some, could open the floodgates if successful. Whilst I don't know the individual concerned, nor wish him ill, this case probably needs to be successful for the benefit of angling as a whole. Its failure will be a nightmare for riparian owners as the likelihood of police involvement and successful future poaching prosecutions diminish if he gets away with it.

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All of the Colne Mere fishers were guesters, even my pal Kevin who put several of the great fish (from being filled-in Bedfont) in there in the first place. All the Blackwater (Kevin's name - and my name - for that water, one which I had often walked platonically before it went "hot", loving its sometimes crystal clarity and wild, unfished state). They all discovered Colne Mere through meeting Kevin when he and his girlfriend lived with me near Windsor after getting back from an Indian epic that I had helped them do a year earlier.

No comment about the originator Kevin here from me (he's one of the finest carp and float- and all-round coarse-fishers that I have ever met), but the expression "Castles built on sand" springs to mind.

To be fair the majority of posts on the 11 pages were against what the chap had done, however the adage "let those that are" etc comes to mind with this type of thing.

Sam is correct about the black mirror, the fish was relentlessly pursued by some of the countries top? most well known anglers, to my knowledge nobody was ever prosecuted for fishing there.

I did my fair share of fishing where I shouldn't have when I was younger, nobody ever knew I had been there, I left no tell tale signs for anyone to see and I never told anyone that I had been there, fishwise sometimes it was worth it at other times not, should those fish that I caught count? I don't care I fish for myself and not for anyone else so for me they do.

it seems the wardens in this case knew what was going on regarding fishing out of bounds at night and its just the fact that the angler stupidly publicised his capture that has lead to his prosecution, very silly, don't get caught with your hand in the sweetie jar unless you want your wrist slapped.

thecrow said:

Sam is correct about the black mirror, the fish was relentlessly pursued by some of the countries top? most well known anglers, to my knowledge nobody was ever prosecuted for fishing there.

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Kevin will be able to confirm whether it was the famed Black Mirror, but I have the only photos (lovely slides) of him and a beautiful, black and gold, 28+-plus fish from Colne Mere in 1984 or '85, a fish that he telephoned me and his girlfriend, still wallowing in our respective beds at my home about early one morning, from a Hythe End telephone box: "I've caught it, Paul! Bring your camera."

We were over there within twenty minutes. Gorgeous fish.

Paul Boote said:

It's everywhere - BBC News - The students who feel they have the right to cheat - the sense of entitlement, the double-speak and double-think, the black is white and the wrong is right.

As I said to my "imaginary" old school mate and a few other friends, one of them a writer and fisher, in an email the other day, concerning a lot of modern Angling - "I remain, Fishy Sirs, magnificently aloof and forever unavailable."

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I shudder to think of the consequences if these cheats are taking medical exams to become doctors.

Yes. Long been endemic in India, with cheating students rioting in the streets on being discovered.


Briefly back to Kevin on Blackwater.

Many many days and nights spent (in the case of one swim) in a hole cut in the middle of thorn trees and bushes for total stealth. No bivvy, just a waterproof tarp to throw over himself and a sleeping bag for warmth when it got cold. Impressive, dedicated, highly successful fisher.

What's laughable about this saga is that one of the mod (may have been Stig) who did work in the Countryside Ranger field, told them all 12 months ago after RS caught and published his capture of the 50+ common (dead now), caught btw in the OOB and at night, that the Rangers were going take no prisoners if they caught anybody breaking the rules.

But do they ever listen or learn......seems not!
What's more tragic for the av Joe angler is Tatton has some fantastic fish of other species (accessible to all, as it's a day ticket water) in it and all this for the av Joe may well be taken away from him. Through the selfish mentality of a "Name" and his sponsor's demands to put ever bigger fish pictures on their website. And that isn't right in my opinion.

---------- Post added at 15:48 ---------- Previous post was at 15:38 ----------

Oh and Paul you seem to be justifying what MG has done by constant reference to your mate Kevin who it appears was also guilty of stealing fishing rights and poaching.

My mostest favourite idea is that if it's you or one of your "mates" doing it it's guesting otherwise it's poaching.

My second mostest favourite is the barrack room lawyers stating that it is a civil matter not a legal matter despite all the recent publicity by the ATr Code for Theft of Fishing Rights: 116/11 (http://www.anglingtrust.net/news.asp?itemid=2101&itemTitle=New+Police+code+for+Theft+of+Fishing+Rights+to+make+reporting+crime+easier§ion=29§ionTitle=Angling+Trust+News). It appears that the ATr is not reaching many with the message.

PS as to the euphemism of the word “Guesting,” I seem to remember the word came into popular usage through another “Name” in the carp world who had a bait/ingredient supply company in the 80s and wrote several books where he bestowed the virtues of it.

The bad one said:

Oh and Paul you seem to be justifying what MG has done by constant reference to your mate Kevin who it appears was also guilty of stealing fishing rights and poaching.

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Eh? I couldn't care what ANY carp fisher has done, "mates" or otherwise, at any time, now or in the past - it's a pastime that has a lot of dirt on its hands, hence all its glorifying of 'istory and 'eritage - classic self-justification and self-aggrandizing stategies of those lacking legitimacy and for the newly arrived. Tell big enough porkies consistently and for long enough and it will become History. Not for me and for proper historians it doesn't.

Point is the guy was caught red handed and is being a prat pleading not guilty as his costs will now go through the roof.
The same thing is creeping/has crept into barbel angling so it's not just carp and carpers.The need by some to feel loved, to be known as an expert, to belong, to be part of a sponsorship overrides everything else

There are well known barbel anglers out there who are quite willing to bend/floute/break the rules, put the fishes welfare well down the list of priorities, pull every stroke just keep their profile in front of an audience and their sponsors happy. Some may even read this.