Dog, fish or human?

laguna

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Yep, just put me on your ignore list.... :D

We're supposed to be the brainy one, certainly the most ferocious, cruel and merciless hunter that's ever walked the planet, often viewing ourselves as superior to other animals and creatures - thanks due to the size of the evolutionary brain and our ability to exploit, make and use tools and weapons otherwise we would've been eaten and become extinct long ago.

Intelligence aside for a moment (the reason for our own success), what about senses... who has the best nose (metaphorically speaking) for a food source?
Dog, fish or human?

and, do you think our senses were once more acute before our heads grew bigger? :rolleyes:
 
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no-one in particular

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I read somewhere once that our ancestor had a larger part of the brain that gives animals that sixth sense. It is still highly developed in most mammals like dogs for example. This part of the brain has shrunk in humans as we evolved and needed it less.
Apart from anglers, who are a bit evolutionary weird.
 
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Alan Tyler

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Our senses are pretty acute, just not so well-trained. This is especially so for our sense of smell - watch a dog smell something; now try to remember the last time you saw a human get its nose that close to a scent-source of unknown and possibly noxious nature.
Our sense of hearing is so acute (for the frequencies that evolution have found useful to us) that some folk are kept awake by the sound of their own blood in their skulls.

As for sniffing out food, fish apparently have taste sensors on the outside of their heads, as well as in their mouths and nares ("nostrils"), so they probably have the edge on any mammal; at least, those which rely on taste/smell do.
Clear-water fish such as trout rely far more on their eyesight for their day-to-day feeding, though they are well able to sniff out a nice, smelly bait in murky water; other fish, specialists in water of the size and clarity of cocoa, deploy electrical impulses to navigate, to locate food/ predators and, in a couple of cases, to stun or kill the same... we mammals have nothing to match that - except, perhaps, the recent discovery that foxes may be using magnetic-field detection to pounce on lemmings under deep snow. (Quantum biology is in its infancy - probably much more to come!)
Then there's vibration/sound detection. Way back in evolutionary history, when jaws were a new-fangled invention that might catch on, some fish had multiple lateral lines - up to eight, if I recall aright ( but it was a relaxed, beery lunch many sleeps ago), and riverine life appears to have been one long "Mexican stand-off" with everyone keeping as still as possible until one starving desperado should take a bite at a passing planktonic snack... this would trigger a cascade of pouncing ending only when the lucky were full of the unlucky. Fish-life seems to have settled down a bit since then, but pike (for instance) still have a lateral line that opens into super-sensitive pits in the jaw; enough well-conditioned, blind pike turn up to suggest that this sense plus taste are sufficient to keep a pike alive.

I think all our big heads have done is warn us of the possible dangers of sniffing the ground too closely.

---------- Post added at 09:15 ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 ----------

Markg - I sometimes wake up "knowing" that something is feeding* and I need to go angling for it. The problem is that, if I grab the pike kit, it'll be the cyprinids that are "mad-on", if I take the bait gear, there'll be pike slashing all over the surface.


*Well, I used to. Nowadays I appear to be training to snore through Armageddon.
 
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greenie62

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Our senses are pretty acute, just not so well-trained......I think all our big heads have done is warn us of the possible dangers of sniffing the ground too closely..

Nice one Al,
I take it from your discourse that your cold is easing - which leads me to the question:
Do fish get colds (or a similar naso-pharangeal condition)? - and what effect does it have on their feeding?
It'd be a bit of a downer to find that all the cracking winter roach caught 'were feeling a bit poorly'!:eek::eek:mg:
 

wes79

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Its a tough one, and based on certain variables that really are not a competing factor, consider Dogs, they have the better sense of smell in the air between humans and dogs but in water the fish has the edge over both dog and human so its a case of two polar opposites between dogs and fish, a dog cannot smell in water and I'm guessing a fish cannot smell in air but I would probably say that smell and taste travels further in a more solid medium like water so that is another factor to consider (the shark is able to smell blood/chum over a kilometre away etc) so the fish has better reception for distance where as a dog needs to work harder to find the trail and keep on it, but the dog-fish has the benefit of not having to wear a collar or live on tinned foods.

Anyway laguna thats a deep question, have you had a feeling of epiphany of sorts?
 
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Teabreak

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Nice one Al,
I take it from your discourse that your cold is easing - which leads me to the question:
Do fish get colds (or a similar naso-pharangeal condition)? - and what effect does it have on their feeding?
It'd be a bit of a downer to find that all the cracking winter roach caught 'were feeling a bit poorly'!:eek::eek:mg:

They say feed a cold and starve a fever so you must be catching the poorly ones. But take solace knowing that the poorly roach are feeding for their health and you are helping.
 

no-one in particular

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[/COLOR]Markg - I sometimes wake up "knowing" that something is feeding* and I need to go angling for it. The problem is that, if I grab the pike kit, it'll be the cyprinids that are "mad-on", if I take the bait gear, there'll be pike slashing all over the surface.


*Well, I used to. Nowadays I appear to be training to snore through Armageddon.[/QUOTE]

Too true Alan, the curse of angling judgement.
I do very often , sitting fishing falling half asleep suddenly get a heightened feeling that fish have moved in the swim or, when catching small fish a feeling a big one has moved in. Followed by a fish or fishes. Don't know why, just often happens.

My earlier post, a bit cheeky but it is true. Scientists have studied the brains of dogs etc and there is a bulge in the brain that is directly linked to the sixth sense. When studying the cranium capacity of our ancestors, they found this bulge was also highly developed. However, in modern humans this has all-but disappeared. The theory is we do not need it anymore because our need to sixth sense danger has disappeared; dodging the trollies in the supermarket aisles is not the same as dodging a sabre toothed tiger. !
 

Alan Tyler

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Do fish get colds? I don't know, but I had an apocalyptic blank when all around were catching one day when all I had to wipe my beak with was a pack of tissues impregnated with Olbas oil. Whatever fish like to clear their heads with, it isn't Olbas.

Interesting point about dogs having to work harder, wes79; they overcome it by hunting in packs - I wonder whether it's one of the factors encouraging shoaling behaviour in fish? Could it be that the more they seem to "need" to shoal up, the more they are dependant on smell to locate food? (Thinking bream v. chub, for instance). (Probably only applies to demersal species - if at all. Pelagic shoalers are probably only in it for security... or are they?)

---------- Post added at 11:01 ---------- Previous post was at 10:55 ----------

Markg, have you read Chris Lyons' "Moonstrike" site? He thinks that both we and (some) fish are likely to lose attention at the same point in the lunar cycle - if we can stay awake, they slip up and take the bait... or something along those lines.
 

Titus

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I have no comment on much of what has been said but that nonsense about the lunar cycle is just that, lunacy.

If you look up cod science in the dictionary it will direct you straight to the moonstrike theory.
All it basically is is a self fulfilling prophecy which chooses to ignore the many other contributing factors.
 

nicepix

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If you are comparing the olfactory senses of dos and fish you have to be more specific.

Sight feeding fish on average do not have the same ability to detect scent than browsers such as barbel and catfish, although there are exceptions to this general rule. Similarly with dogs, some breeds have far better olfactory systems than others.

The only thing for certain is that even the fish or breed of dog with the least olfactory sense will still beat a human's sense of smell by a country mile.

Just to give an example of a dog's ability; a former colleague was asked to use his border collie to check several old buildings in Northern Ireland that might have been the scene of a terrorist murder over twenty years previously. His dog indicated one wall of an old barn and the forensic people were able to extract and cultivate DNA matching the victim from that wall. And border collies aren't in the high leagues as regards canine scenting ability.
 

Titus

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Dogs are being trained for detecting all sorts of medical conditions these days including specific tumours, My daughters dog is particularly attracted to any sort of blood injury and will sit and stare at the site even if it is covered by clothes, this is not something he has been trained to do but just something he has always done since she first had him.
It can be a bit embarrassing, especially when the old farmer Giles are playing up.
 

tikka

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Having bred & run Working Dogs (ESS & Labs) for many years, in the field all my dogs have have certainly been brainier than me, having found, flushed game/fowl then retrieve it after I've shot it, I sometimes felt that it wasn't me taking them out for the day, rather them taking me out for the day.lol. I believe the same goes for the fish, guess they're also way ahead of me, but not to worry because I've had more good days than bad whilst in the company of both dogs & fish, & hopefully many more to come.
 

laguna

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Respect and thanks to everyone for your answers, it wakes up my two inactive brain cells this time of morning... :D
The reason I asked dog, fish or human was to evoke a discussion around the innate abilities of fish (mainly) at being able to suss out a good meal in preference perhaps to a poor one, how this might compare to dogs (which most of us understand a little through better observation as pets) so that we as humans, the great hunter, might select the right kind of bait at the appropriate time and place.

I think we can agree to the extent as suggested, that fish are more capable in a watery environment at finding food, and a dog on land being better than humans breathing the same air and scents carried to find a good meal. A sight feeding trout may snatch at most things (but not all according to a film I've got which suggests they're more selective than first realised) passing by that resembles food. Even in total darkness, both the dog and fish are more than capable of finding something to eat using olfactory senses whereas we'd be pretty much left starving fumbling in the dark.

My dog, is a Russell (crossed with something or other, Patterdale I think according to the bloke who docked his tail illegally) and a very picky eater, spoiled on good quality food, knows the difference with what might look like a burger made of vegetable protein (soya) and a minced steak burger by smell alone. He also sticks his nose in the shopping bags and knows what's been brought home. We're all (all living creatures) stimulated by food scents which is largely an automatic response and its true to the extent that, given a choice; we all prefer only the best... a starving dog, fish or human will otherwise eat whatever it can get. I think this is significant to what kind of baits are preferred (or not) on a stuffed pond full of hungry fish, verses a river or lake with fewer fish present that largely feeds on naturals and a few anglers baits. Both will eat anything, whereas in times of plenty, like a hatch for example with less competition around, can afford to be a bit more selective.

I learned years ago some place that fishes senses are many hundreds of times more sensitive than dogs, possibly thousands depending on the species (the reason why you shouldn't over do it on the glug?) and that dogs have noses many hundreds of times more sensitive than humans - reason why my own dog can smell the difference a mile off between minced steak and veggie burgers and knows when there's a treat in the shopping bags (and which one), even though its at the bottom wrapped in plastic packaging.

If we had have evolved along with fish and stayed in the water we might have had a better nose and a lateral line or two, if we had grown up with wolves we might have had better hunting instincts and a nose for sniffing out our prey down wind. Genetically were all very similar (DNA) but a few percentage differences means we are worlds apart even to our nearest descendants - the chimpanzee!

A comparative study I read on the chimp genome says that humans and chimps diverged approximately five million years ago. The results suggest (surprising to them?) that humans do not appear to rely strongly on smell to survive. Finding food and sensing whether it is edible or noxious are possible selective pressures driving the evolution of human olfaction. Another study, detailed in the January 2004 edition of the journal Public Library of Science Biology, argues that, perhaps like the victim of a sense-robbing disability, humans and other apes may have sacrificed some sense of smell to develop full-colour vision.

Humans, mice and the other great apes all have a similar number of olfactory receptor genes. Yet up to 60 per cent of these are inactive in man, compared to only 30 to 40 per cent in great apes and 20 per cent in mice and dogs.
 

no-one in particular

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[/COLOR]Markg, have you read Chris Lyons' "Moonstrike" site? He thinks that both we and (some) fish are likely to lose attention at the same point in the lunar cycle - if we can stay awake, they slip up and take the bait... or something along those lines.[/QUOTE]

No I haven't Alan, heard about it, I will have a look later. Some of my own notes suggest some species are more active during some phases of the moon. However, on its own, I wouldn't want to fish by it.
"they slip up and take the bait." ---usually when the top of my flask is being unscrewed or when I light a fag. They are so good at it; it wouldn't surprise me they have evolved a special lump of brain with a radar for the purpose. Little B***
 
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laguna

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Its a tough one, and based on certain variables that really are not a competing factor, consider Dogs, they have the better sense of smell in the air between humans and dogs but in water the fish has the edge over both dog and human so its a case of two polar opposites between dogs and fish, a dog cannot smell in water and I'm guessing a fish cannot smell in air but I would probably say that smell and taste travels further in a more solid medium like water so that is another factor to consider (the shark is able to smell blood/chum over a kilometre away etc) so the fish has better reception for distance where as a dog needs to work harder to find the trail and keep on it, but the dog-fish has the benefit of not having to wear a collar or live on tinned foods.

Anyway laguna thats a deep question, have you had a feeling of epiphany of sorts?
Agree, I think the density of water means it is a better carrier than air and remains largely concentrated in areas and at greater distances, least influenced by currents than wind and thermals?

Do fish get colds? I don't know, but I had an apocalyptic blank when all around were catching one day when all I had to wipe my beak with was a pack of tissues impregnated with Olbas oil. Whatever fish like to clear their heads with, it isn't Olbas.

Interesting point about dogs having to work harder, wes79; they overcome it by hunting in packs - I wonder whether it's one of the factors encouraging shoaling behaviour in fish? Could it be that the more they seem to "need" to shoal up, the more they are dependant on smell to locate food? (Thinking bream v. chub, for instance). (Probably only applies to demersal species - if at all. Pelagic shoalers are probably only in it for security... or are they?)

Does Olbas contain clove oil by any chance?

Shoaling, (whatever dwellers they happen to be) I assumed was for security only? though I imagine a large shoal will cover a lot more ground so there maybe some serendipitous advantage.
 

laguna

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Olbas does indeed contain clove oil, among others: Olbas Oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Is it a known fish repellant?

I should think so Alan. in aquaculture its used as a fish anaesthetic and anaesthesia at low concentrations.
Clove oil is an essential oil distilled from stems, leaves and flower buds of the clove plant, Eugenia caryophyllata. As an essential oil, it doesn't easily mix with water but if its on your fingers its probably easily transferred onto your bait and would probably act as a repellent?
 

wes79

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Agree, I think the density of water means it is a better carrier than air and remains largely concentrated in areas and at greater distances, least influenced by currents than wind and thermals?

Good point, also if you consider steel (the metal) it has no smell as it is not evaporating anything that can be taken or absorbed by air (or wind) or even heat (as thermals etc) or water, however since water is more constant in temperature than air, smells or evaporation's (volatile molecules) lose there ability to leave a medium that is denser or otherwise contained.

Consider the smelly ******* that farted in the lift against the same smelly ******* that drops one outdoors in windy conditions (who is most likely to get away with it and why?) :D

Groundbaiting/chumming
 
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laguna

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Good point, also if you consider steel (the metal) it has no smell as it is not evaporating anything that can be taken or absorbed by air (or wind) or even heat (as thermals etc) or water, however since water is more constant in temperature than air, smells or evaporation's (volatile molecules) lose there ability to leave a medium that is denser or otherwise contained.

Consider the smelly ******* that farted in the lift against the same smelly ******* that drops one outdoors in windy conditions (who is most likely to get away with it and why?) :D

Groundbaiting/chumming
Another point often overlooked is the unseen fish deterrent in the form of the electronegativity of metals especially, from dissimilar nobilities from lead, tungsten, steel and brass in close proximity (not forgetting fluorocarbon lines, Fluorine being the most electronegative element), also down riggers... fishing from an aluminium hulled boat without a zinc keel or the favoured 'black box' negator, apparently the end tackles lit like a Christmas tree down there, believed to put em off big style.
Temperature differences too, a warm bait appears to work best (in theory) to our advantage; surrounding water molecules moving slowly when cold and acting on the "warmer molecules" within a bait, heat diffuses from the hot environment to the cold so flavour will leech quickly which can only be a good thing right?... Yep, there's a lot to be said about chewing bread (warm amylase and saliva) and putting maggots in your mouth!

A fart tends to 'bounce' around a bit in winter and lingers far too much around its owner to get away with it. :eek:mg:
 
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