Guesting... Encouraging bad practice?

binka · Feb 3, 2015

I'm curious as to what people think on this with reference to "guesting", I had never heard of the phrase until it came up in another discussion where I think the consensus was generally condemnation on the basis that it has the potential to ruin things for the vast majority of rule abiding anglers not to mention possibly giving those that practice it an unfair advantage.

Take a look at this from around the twenty to forty seconds part...

http://youtu.be/eGW0gBbUCNw

And this, from around thirty to forty seconds...

Aqua Products® Atom® Bivvy - YouTube

It's one thing for an individual to stick their neck out and decide they are going to ignore the rules but is it responsible for representatives of manufacturers to recommend, or if you prefer, point out the benefits for the use of their products in what is essentially a deliberate and pre-meditated breach of fishery rules and water bye-laws?

Or is it a bit naïve to condemn and this is just the way things are now?

terry m · Feb 3, 2015

Binka - not naïve at all, not in my book at least.

I first read of guesting in Terry Hearns 'In Pursuit....' book. I always called it poaching.

It seems to be a badge of honour worn by carp anglers, and contributes to the bad press they sometimes receive, though clearly it does not apply to all anglers.

I am a traditionalist on things like this, taking things that are not yours - i.e. helping yourself to fishing to which you have no rights - is tantamount to theft.

I also agree that using sponsored and named anglers to state that they undertake this practice as they promote a product is a peculiar marketing strategy.

stu_the_blank · Feb 3, 2015

Having seen this, I'm only choked that I didn't see it before I bought a new bag and quiver a couple of weeks ago, yes I bought Aqua!

Don't want to be a complete prude, but I'm with you, this is a bit out of order.

Stu

binka · Feb 3, 2015

stu_the_blank said:
Having seen this, I'm only choked that I didn't see it before I bought a new bag and quiver a couple of weeks ago, yes I bought Aqua!

Don't want to be a complete prude, but I'm with you, this is a bit out of order.

Stu

I also bought a new quiver recently Stu prior to seeing those clips, it was an Aqua roving quiver which I was chuffed to bits with and I was going to buy a second to save having to swap stuff around and have made up quivers for different disciplines but I will look elsewhere in light of this, had I have known I wouldn't have bought the first which is a shame really because it is good stuff.

pf0x · Feb 3, 2015

Yes, it is seen as a bit of "badge of honour" amongst some carpers to 'guest' on waters where they shouldn't be. Partly, bravado but a lot of it is a genuine desire to escape the crowds and the mundanity of known fish from known swims on known waters. The thrill of the chase etc.

For me, there is a difference in poaching on a syndicate where normal members have to pay for the right to fish and poaching/guesting on waters that don't allow fishing full stop (for whatever reason) and probably never will.

Yes, it's 'wrong' but frankly, what harm are they doing? Carp fishing has always had a slightly 'dodgy' side to it (fish movements, rule breaking etc). It's almost part of the fabric of it. Not that I condone it.

I'm actually a stickler for rules on any water I fish. I will always follows the rules. I think everyone who agrees to buy a ticket or join a syndicate etc should accept the rules as they are.

But when it comes to people who want to take risk fishing on 'No Fishing' lakes I sort of think good luck to 'em.............

(PS I love the look of that bivvy

)

(PPS anyone else notice that Auto Correct changes bivvy to 'divvy'? Freudian slip?)

binka · Feb 3, 2015

pf0x said:
Yes, it is seen as a bit of "badge of honour" amongst some carpers to 'guest' on waters where they shouldn't be. Partly, bravado but a lot of it is a genuine desire to escape the crowds and the mundanity of known fish from known swims on known waters. The thrill of the chase etc.

For me, there is a difference in poaching on a syndicate where normal members have to pay for the right to fish and poaching/guesting on waters that don't allow fishing full stop (for whatever reason) and probably never will.

Yes, it's 'wrong' but frankly, what harm are they doing? Carp fishing has always had a slightly 'dodgy' side to it (fish movements, rule breaking etc). It's almost part of the fabric of it. Not that I condone it.

I'm actually a stickler for rules on any water I fish. I will always follows the rules. I think everyone who agrees to buy a ticket or join a syndicate etc should accept the rules as they are.

But when it comes to people who want to take risk fishing on 'No Fishing' lakes I sort of think good luck to 'em.............

(PS I love the look of that bivvy )

(PPS anyone else notice that Auto Correct changes bivvy to 'divvy'? Freudian slip?)

Thanks for the reply

That appears to cover your view on the individual angler but what about manufacturers, do you think it's right and sets a good example for manufacturers to endorse their products for prohibited use as was clearly the case in the two clips?

pf0x · Feb 3, 2015

binka said:
Thanks for the reply

That appears to cover your view on the individual angler but what about manufacturers, do you think it's right and sets a good example for manufacturers to endorse their products for prohibited use as was clearly the case in the two clips?

They probably think it makes they seem a bit 'dangerous' or 'maverick' and more appealing (to some). Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know what I mean? Say no more etc.

mg:

I do see what you mean. But carp fishing is currently in the process of eating itself. The carp trade has spent 30 years telling people everything must bigger (or smaller!), better, faster, quicker, easier. So we've ended up in a situation where anglers fish overstocked and overcrowded lakes 365 days a year.

So now the only release from it all becomes guesting or fishing ultra hard waters with lower stocks........

mg:

The bad one · Feb 4, 2015

Given that we now know that Guesting, Poaching is legally the Theft of Fishing Rights a criminal offense. Could Aqua be charged with Aiding and Abetting or Incitement to steal Fishing Rights if a complaint was made to the police?

S-Kippy · Feb 4, 2015

stu_the_blank said:
Don't want to be a complete prude, but I'm with you, this is a bit out of order.

Stu

More than a bit out of order in my book......its bang out of order,both the practice of guesting and its endorsement. Its just not right and to basically ignore that as part of a cynical marketing strategy is at the very least ill judged . Personally I think its a bloody disgrace.

sam vimes · Feb 4, 2015

It's entirely indicative of the way that some of "the great and the good" of carp angling carry on. If a big name does it, it's "guesting". If a mere moratal does it, it's poaching. Unfortunately, unless the mere mortal is Eastern European, even his poaching is slowly changing into seemingly acceptable "guesting". Everything trickles down from the upper echelons, good and bad.

A bit of fishing where shouldn't be is not exclusive to carp anglers (or, despite the way some anglers talk, Poles!

:wh). From kids sneaking about in places they shouldn't be, shore anglers on cliffs, piers and jetties they shouldn't be, to pikers carrying on in the same way that carpers do. However, I can't think of any of them, other than the carp world, where such things are steadily being legitimised with the use of a euphemism for what it really is.

terry m · Feb 4, 2015

S-Kippy said:
More than a bit out of order in my book......its bang out of order,both the practice of guesting and its endorsement. Its just not right and to basically ignore that as part of a cynical marketing strategy is at the very least ill judged . Personally I think its a bloody disgrace.

Perfectly put Skippy.

And, to Binka's earlier point about not buying their products I entirely agree.

Aqua will not see a huge downturn in revenue because I personally boycott them. But principles are principles, and if enough right minded people think the same then perhaps Aqua will realise that their irresponsible and frankly idiotic marketing strategy is counterproductive. I really hope so.

thecrow · Feb 4, 2015

The term "guesting" has been used for a very long time to describe fishing where the angler shouldn't be, it was certainly in use in the area I live well before the modern carp scene came about.

Its certainly not something unique to carp anglers, neither is the use of a bivvy but as usual the "its those carp angler" comments come out. I remember an angler well known for his tench catches on tring fishing at night on a water for roach when there was no night fishing allowed.

I know of anglers that fish waters with no fishing allowed on them, they leave no mess there are no signs they have been there and to be honest to use a bivvy when "guesting" is a stupid idea as it would leave evidence of the angler being there and would certainly prevent a quick getaway.

I also know of a water that 2 anglers are allowed to fish by the farmer who previously stopped any fishing on there because of rubbish left there that killed one of his cows, one of the anglers was caught fishing by the farmer when the angler caught a fish in sight of the farmer who knew nothing of them fishing there as they left no signs.

For the manufacturer of the bivvy to use material that suggests it would be ideal for guesting is laughable and indicative of the sheep like attitude of some anglers.

Titus · Feb 4, 2015

I can only agree with everything which has been said, the bloke in the first clip even went so far as to emphasise the point to make himself out to be a bit of a 'geeeezer'.

I had to smile at the second clip of the bloke staggering down the path burdened down with his 'stalking kit', it reminded me of the pictures of the sherpas from the early everest expeditions.

fruitowl · Feb 4, 2015

How can a company justify the tactic of encouraging people to break the law all be it nudge, nudge, wink, wink, just to sell it's product.
aqua should be ashamed of a campaign like that I will not buy any products made by them it's disgraceful totally and utterly disgraceful.

greenie62 · Feb 4, 2015

fruitowl said:
How can a company justify the tactic of encouraging people to break the law all be it nudge, nudge, wink, wink, just to sell it's product.
aqua should be ashamed of a campaign like that I will not buy any products made by them it's disgraceful totally and utterly disgraceful.

May be an idea to contact the main guy behind Aqua - Chris Manifold - and alert him to what the 'oversight' in the adverts signifies and see if he'll 'lead' the way into denouncing this form of 'guesting'. See his profile here: Aqua Team. Chris Manifold : Aqua Products?

pf0x · Feb 4, 2015

thecrow said:
The term "guesting" has been used for a very long time to describe fishing where the angler shouldn't be, it was certainly in use in the area I live well before the modern carp scene came about.

Its certainly not something unique to carp anglers, neither is the use of a bivvy but as usual the "its those carp angler" comments come out. I remember an angler well known for his tench catches on tring fishing at night on a water for roach when there was no night fishing allowed.

Agreed. Also, hardcore pike anglers are even more dodgy than carp anglers!

If you read books on specimen fish captures it's pretty obvious that anglers of all disciplines have been fishing where they shouldn't for decades.

I do agree that the videos show something that is unique to carp fishing though. It's becoming more blatant. More 'accepted'. It's partly about the 'bragging rights', isn't it?

"Oh you caught a 30lb from day ticket did you? Well I spent two years hiding in a bush on a nature reserve to catch this 29lber so my capture is worth more than yours....."

But let's not get carried away. Let's give the carp anglers some respect. They love their fish and their fishing. There is a difference between a carp angler fishing a 'No Fishing' water un-noticed for months or years, leaving no trace and people fishing places without a ticket and leaving vodka bottles, beer cans and barbecues...........

fruitowl · Feb 4, 2015

thanks for the link greenie this is the mail I have sent to aqua products.

hi.
having recently seen 2 adverts for your atom bivvy I find it strange that the presenters seem to endorse the practising of guesting saying that the atom can be hidden in the thickest undergrowth where it would be hard to see.
associating a product to an illegal act seems a strange marketing ploy and a concern that people will buy it to fish illegally as the item is easy and compact and would be hard to spot.
in my opinion their is no need to mention things which could encourage people to break the law.
I look forward to your response.
stephen jones

sam vimes · Feb 4, 2015

greenie62 said:
May be an idea to contact the main guy behind Aqua - Chris Manifold - and alert him to what the 'oversight' in the adverts signifies and see if he'll 'lead' the way into denouncing this form of 'guesting'. See his profile here: Aqua Team. Chris Manifold : Aqua Products�

I'd suggest that there may be little point in contacting Chris Manifold. It's my understanding that, though he is still involved, he sold Aqua to Trakker a few years back.

pf0x · Feb 4, 2015

Just remembered who the guy in the video reminded me of.

Chris the Crafty Cockney from the Fast Show!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VdCsXuccgU

greenie62 · Feb 4, 2015

sam vimes said:
I'd suggest that there may be little point in contacting Chris Manifold. It's my understanding that, though he is still involved, he sold Aqua to Trakker a few years back.

Thanks Sam,
It may be interesting to see how fast he puts distance between himself and the company given he is still publicly associated with them as a 'name'!

---------- Post added at 12:44 ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 ----------

pf0x said:
Just remembered who the guy in the video reminded me of.

Chris the Crafty Cockney from the Fast Show!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VdCsXuccgU

Yeah - see what you mean!
As a keen angler - Paul Whitehouse could do a wonderful parody on the 'guesting' carper!

Perhaps FM Admin/Editorial could approach him to help lead a campaign against poaching/'guesting'?

Guesting... Encouraging bad practice?

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