thecrow
Well-known member
Anyone know when a tidal river ceases to be classed as coastline and becomes river bank?
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peter crabtree
AKA Simon, 1953 - 2022 (RIP)
Further upstream than the estuarine section 
flightliner
Well-known member
An interesting question The Crow, I certaily dont know the answer but I reckon we have to exclude the Trent from the issue it running into another major river before itself flows into the Humber.
Maybe theres an invisible line of understanding with the authorities, taking the Humber mouth as an example, a verticle line from the lighthouse at Paul to some point on the Cleethorpes bank may be coastline east of it and riverbank to the westward side????.
Maybe theres an invisible line of understanding with the authorities, taking the Humber mouth as an example, a verticle line from the lighthouse at Paul to some point on the Cleethorpes bank may be coastline east of it and riverbank to the westward side????.
maggot_dangler
Well-known member
A very good question
Having had a good old google and not coming up with anything firm it would appear to be where the salt water no longer reaches on an incoming tide ..
PG ..
Having had a good old google and not coming up with anything firm it would appear to be where the salt water no longer reaches on an incoming tide ..
PG ..
thecrow
Well-known member
Thanks for the suggestions, I have a feeling that wherever it is its decided by the admiralty, I do know that on the Thames its somewhere to the West of London (google again)
Mark Wintle
Well-known member
It does depend on the river and what the question of why the definition is required. On some of my local Dorset rivers the tidal rivers are private fisheries without a public right to fish and these have clearly defined boundaries that are well down into the estuary, certainly far enough to find most of the fish present to be sea fish rather than coarse fish, depending on flows etc. The navigation limit is often the NTL for medium tides which in the cases above is well upstream. Technically the need for a rod licence which includes fishing for silver (freshwater) eels extends to the 6-mile limit but this requirement to have a freshwater licence for catching eels in the sea has been waived.
slaphead
Well-known member
As far as I am aware, if coarse or game fishing it matters not where or when it becomes classed as a river, a valid rod license is still required.
thecrow
Well-known member
I didn't post the question because of having to purchase a licence more out of general interest.
I believe that the crown owns the coastline which begs the question of ownership of riparian rights on some tidal stretches.
stu_the_blank
Well-known member
The usually accepted limit of the salt water influence on the Thames is somewhere around Battersea Power Station although it obviosly goes up and down with the tide. That would correspond with 'somewhere to the west of London' (City I presume, the extent of the tidal, and semi tidal are both still in 'London'). Any TAC members on who could confirm?
An interesting question.
Stu
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Sometimes you just have to Google.
According to 'In brief' Fishing Rights in England and Wales
But I would also check local bylaws for the definitive answer.
However, given your attitude towards guesting I'm surprised you're even bothered.
According to 'In brief' Fishing Rights in England and Wales
But I would also check local bylaws for the definitive answer.
However, given your attitude towards guesting I'm surprised you're even bothered.
Mark Wintle
Well-known member
The reason certain tidal waters are private is because the king granted the rights prior to Magna Carta, which explains why at least two are called 'Royalty fisheries (Avon and Piddle). Post Magna Carta there is a right to fish tidal waters.
thecrow
Well-known member
Thanks Mark, as always interesting information.
no-one in particular
Well-known member
I always thought it was where the river ceases to be tidal; goes up and down with the tide.. I believe this is Teddington Weir on the Thames- West London. Most rivers seem to have a tidal stretch which stops at a weir or lock. However, I don't know what the official designation is regarding fishing, coarse sea and game.
geoffmaynard
Content Editor
I believe it's not clear and the same everywhere. The Crown owns the shore, yes, but it also owns the rivers and the banks! And just about everything else. People who own freeholds only own the right to treat them as their own, they still actually belong to the Crown. On the Thames the tidal limit is Teddington (literally Tide-end-town) but I seem to remember something about the most downstream bridge is considered the limit in law when referencing something-or-the-other. Maybe Windy can chip in? He's the legal expert
dorsetandchub
Well-known member
I neither pass nor offer any comments on guesting but would add that doing so on Crown owned property might risk Mr Crow being placed among a rather well known collection of Ravens!!
It's a fair question, well asked and I'm not sure how relevant it is (if at all) but I believe both Magna Carta and the Woodland Charter both deal with access to waterways. I think my erstwhile Dorset colleague Mr Wintle could tell one a lot more than me but one of them dictates that a river from the sea to the first footbridge is free access and fishing rights? Could be wrong but I believe that to be the case...?
It's a fair question, well asked and I'm not sure how relevant it is (if at all) but I believe both Magna Carta and the Woodland Charter both deal with access to waterways. I think my erstwhile Dorset colleague Mr Wintle could tell one a lot more than me but one of them dictates that a river from the sea to the first footbridge is free access and fishing rights? Could be wrong but I believe that to be the case...?
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You certainly are wrong, so long as the water rises and falls with the tide it is deemed tidal and the fishing from boat or bank is free below the mean high water mark.
Bridges, foot or otherwise, have nothing to do with it.
Bridges, foot or otherwise, have nothing to do with it.
Mark Wintle
Well-known member
Correct but take note of my earlier comment about private fisheries created before Magna Carta, including tidal waters on the Dorset Piddle, Frome, Stour, Hants Avon, possibly the Exe. The clue is in the name - Royalty - and some fisheries were severed from land ownership further inland eg 'The Several Fishery' at Ringwood and the Royalty Fishery at Longham. These fisheries were not angling fisheries but places where salmon were trapped or netted originally hence the high value of the fishery and the protection placed on them. Wareham even gets its name from the original salmon weir ('weir ham'). Interestingly the upstream fishery limits do not correspond to the modern tidal limits which implies changes to tidal flows in the last 800 years. On the Ordnance Survey maps of 1:25000 the tidal limit is marked NTL. Getting access to the bank is often the biggest problem on tidal waters where fishing is permitted.
geoffmaynard
Content Editor
Magna Carta "Only three clauses are still valid - the one guaranteeing the liberties of the English Church; the clause confirming the privileges of the City of London and other towns; and the clause that states that no free man shall be imprisoned without the lawful judgement of his equals"
Just how important is Magna Carta 800 years on? - BBC News
Just how important is Magna Carta 800 years on? - BBC News
dorsetandchub
Well-known member
Useful to know, thanks so much.
Mark Wintle
Well-known member
Case law and my legal books on fishing suggest otherwise when it comes to tidal fisheries.