Top anglers-its a funny old life

After posting something about top anglers on another thread I had given some thought to if a top angler fished my poor waters one afternoon a week same as me, would he catch any more than me, I doubted it. Like wise I thought if I could fish his better waters as often as he, would I also have some magnificent catches, I surmised I would. These thoughts were going through my mind yesterday morning. Then in the afternoon one of those odd coincidences took place, it is a funny old life!
Waiting for a bus home after fishing a bloke came up and asked if I had caught anything. When I told him no and where I had been fishing he said he had caught some massive bream there. He told me their measurements, one was 20 inches deep and 16 inches long. I said about 6lb then and he said a lot more than that. He pulled out of his wallet a little card and stuck on this card were three scales. He said he found these in the bottom of his landing net and on the back of the card he had written down three lots of measurements of three bream including the biggest one just mentioned.
He then proceeded to tell me about all the top waters he had fished, Trent, Welland, Nene etc and that he was the N.F.I. England champion for 1976. (not sure if I got that right)
Now here's the thing, I have fished this little stretch for 20 years and the biggest bream I have ever caught there was just over 5lb and that was an exception believe me, usually about 1lb, 2lb being a good fish. So along comes this "top angler" and in one session had surpassed my efforts by a long chalk after 20 years.
So maybe I am wrong about all being equal a top angler will not do any better than me.!

Were they definitely bream scales and from the water he said they were from?

What many top anglers have in common is time. They seem to do not much more than go fishing. I found out that once I retired most of my PB's increased simply because I had time to spare and could choose when and where to go.
I didn't become a better angler, just had the time do go fishing.
Reports of fish sizes can be very misleading, bream always look twice the size they are. There is a lot of guess work goes on with fish weights. Just look at the reported weights in the angling press.

Lord Paul of Sheffield said:

Were they definitely bream scales and from the water he said they were from?

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They were about just over half inch I guess, the fact he had glued them to a little card and written down the dimensions on the back made me think they were genuine and who goes to that trouble and carry it around in his wallet! He was a nice bloke, I wish I had asked his name. Mind you it was odd he actually had not weighed them I guess. The other odd thin is I have fished this little stretch for years and no one ever fishes it, never seen him before. Mind you had said he had just moved nearby and after retiring he had just started to fish again.
Either he was genuinely a much better angler than me or I could just put it down to one of angling's idiosyncrasies.

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steve2 said:

What many top anglers have in common is time. They seem to do not much more than go fishing. I found out that once I retired most of my PB's increased simply because I had time to spare and could choose when and where to go.
I didn't become a better angler, just had the time do go fishing.
Reports of fish sizes can be very misleading, bream always look twice the size they are. There is a lot of guess work goes on with fish weights. Just look at the reported weights in the angling press.

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Basically what I said yesterday Steve, given the time and access to top waters, maybe we could all report big catches and if weights are exaggerated, that does not take skill ! However, I do believe there is skill and accumulated knowledge involved, I am not dismissing it but I think this thing of watercraft is a bit over exaggerated sometimes.

Some anglers do have a gift above us mere mortals.
However its just possible your acquaintance hit the right spot at the right time.
We all get those special days now and again. The proof of the pudding is if he gets repeat exceptional captures beyond what is normal.

It brings to mind the situation we all have read about where a youngster or new angler buys a spinning rod and on their first outing manages to catch the biggest pike seen for years.

Steve,

I don't think you can attribute success to having unlimited time to fish. Or indeed that ''every'' successful angler has access to exclusive or private waters. That would tend to imply that everyones skills are equal, and that just cannot be so. Yes, there are examples of luck, as there are anglers who virtually live on the bank,(time bandits) we used to call them.

But, accept the fact or not, some anglers do have an affinity for certain species. And it is my belief that those very anglers have studied the species over many years, in good and bad weather and water conditions, and can adapt their approach to maximise their chances. Of course you will never eliminate the buggeration factor as **** Walker so aptly named it of the ''fluke capture''. But those catches are just that, in other words a ''one off'',no consistency following them.

That's my opinion anyway.

a prime example,some years ago when i was in the army 3 of us fished the river cam,we were fishing literally touching each other,i fished in the middle,the other two were catching fish i wasnt,i fished the same line,float,hook and bait but couldnt even get a bite,so the old saying if the fish are in your swim and hungy you will catch

Derek Gibson said:

But, accept the fact or not, some anglers do have an affinity for certain species

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How true is that! Certain anglers seem to have that talent with almost any species as well.

I have witnessed anglers like Graham Marsden catching fish where others on the same day and using the same rod have failed, and not just the once either.

Anglers like "Barney" or Wol Gaunt can magic fish out of a proverbial puddle while watching others around them packing away a dry net.

Mark Wintle is another angler who can almost charm fish out of a river, but again his approach, preparation, knowledge and skill are second to none

Another of the same ilk is Dave Slater who can bank Chub, in particular, out of the Hampshire Avon while all around are wondering why they cannot catch.

Those anglers all have a few things in common though; their preparation borders on perfection, their baits are always top quality, and their knowledge of the venue has been hard won over time.

Yes there are those that catch any where.

But even **** Walker put his carp record capture down to luck in some ways.
He was fishing with Pete Thomas and their baits were close together so the carp could have picked Pete Thomas bait and the record would have been his.

So how do you judge a top angler, many of their big fish lists include repeat captures, same swim, same fish. I know where I can catch a 20lb plus pike,carp and other big fish, but having caught them once, why would I try to catch them over and over again. If I did, would I be a top angler.

steve2 said:

Yes there are those that catch any where.

But even **** Walker put his carp record capture down to luck in some ways.
He was fishing with Pete Thomas and their baits were close together so the carp could have picked Pete Thomas bait and the record would have been his.

So how do you judge a top angler, many of their big fish lists include repeat captures, same swim, same fish. I know where I can catch a 20lb plus pike,carp and other big fish, but having caught them once, why would I try to catch them over and over again. If I did, would I be a top angler.

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Steve, I don't believe anyone sets out to deliberately re-catch a previous fish, to do so would be unethical to me. However, if you fish a particular water where there are a number of large fish then yes a recapture is everpresent, that's a chance you take.

But, whatever species you target, if you are making consistant good catches then it becomes more possible for a repeat capture. Then it's up to the individual angler to call a halt to his fishing and try elsewhere. I hope this defines my stance.

11alan111 said:

a prime example,some years ago when i was in the army 3 of us fished the river cam,we were fishing literally touching each other,i fished in the middle,the other two were catching fish i wasnt,i fished the same line,float,hook and bait but couldnt even get a bite,so the old saying if the fish are in your swim and hungy you will catch

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Its funny, when I used to do a lot of sea boat fishing, there was always one who did not catch, it was almost guaranteed, same bit of sea, same bait etc. We would swop sides and the chosen one would would still not catch.

I do believe in an angler having a better sixth sense, an ability to get it right more often than not based on an innate instinct and a affinity with what he's doing. I don't think of it as skill or great watercraft though. Depends on whether you think those crucial decisions are based on a unconscious sixth sense or on knowledge and skill. Maybe they somehow transmit a better vibe in the water for fish. I have not got it, if it could be sold in a jar I would buy it. My next enterprise, Jars of sixth angling sense - Rodney.

Having just gone through the proofreading stage of a book (due out in October) on Ivan Marks and the Likely Lads and spent more than a year researching Ivan's fishing life and talking to his team mates and others who knew him I have to say that there is a massive gulf between the truly great and those that are merely extremely good. To a man the Likely Lads, all incredibly successful open circuit anglers in their own right from the days when opens were anything up to 1400 pegs, all said that Ivan was truly special, one of the greats in just the same way that Terry Hearn or Terry Lampard were/are greats in their big fish field. If you haven't got that rarest of talent then no amount of practice, opportunity or gear will make that final bit of difference. I was only ever a good CLUB match angler albeit one who won some opens and winter leagues plus many club matches and championships but to watch Ivan at his peak was just awe inspiring and brought home to me my own limitations. Those who worked with Ivan on his match fishing book - John Goodwin - and Kevin Ashurst on his book - Colin Dyson - both good anglers, found themselves realising that it was impossible for them to reach the heights achieved by Ivan and Kevin.
It's true that a competent angler can improve, can do well on the right waters, especially with expert help, yet that is it. It would be possible, though it won't happen, to equip those who find this hard to believe with the exact gear that Ivan used for his greatest successes on the Welland - a Persuader rod, Mitchell Match loaded with 2.6lb Bayer and original zoomer and go onto the banks of the Welland and ask them to cast it across the Welland (40 yards) and lay that float parallel to the far bank then groundbait, by hand, on top of the float with soft groundbait. At this point it would be realised the gulf between the gifted and the rest of us.
As a contrast an angler of my and Neil Maidment's acquaintance back in the early 80s set out to become a top match angler. For a decade he read everything he could, watched top anglers and spent a fortune on gear yet could not see that he could only ever be a very average club angler. It was heartbreaking because in the end he destroyed the fun he had and would not listen to wiser counsel.
I would suggest to Markg that you need to learn more about the top anglers, perhaps watch some or meet some; it will be a revelation. I did fish with one of the Likely Lads a few weeks ago. He hadn't fished for 20 years yet within 10 minutes was handling float gear with a skill that verified Ivan's prediction when this lad was 13 that one day he would achieve great things - this lad won the National at the age of 18....

I would suggest to Markg that you need to learn more about the top anglers, perhaps watch some or meet some; it will be a revelation. I did fish with one of the Likely Lads a few weeks ago. He hadn't fished for 20 years yet within 10 minutes was handling float gear with a skill that verified Ivan's prediction when this lad was 13 that one day he would achieve great things - this lad won the National at the age of 18....

I fished in that National on the Bristol Avon. The winner, that would be Phil Coles? with 30lbs plus and I am sure John Toulson fishing for Notts Fed was second. Pete.

Yes, it was Phil who I fished with and who won that National with 33-8-0. Toulson was 4th fishing for the BAA.

I’ve known a couple of local anglers in my lifetime who I would have thought could have made it regularly on the big stage and, for reasons I cannot fathom despite many hours watching and trying to twig on, were leagues ahead of what I would consider a good angler.

Whether they would or not is a different matter but I do subscribe to the theory that a very few have a thinking process and approach which is almost like a sixth sense to those like me who don’t possess it.

I’m happy with my lot and enjoy plenty of success in my general fishing but I reckon after thirty years or more I’m still only scraping the surface in respect of their understanding.

The other thing about Ivan Marks and other greats on the match circuit is that they could cope with the pressure. Particularly the pressure of being watched and under scrutiny when fishing.
Someone like me, a clumsy so and so miscasts and tangles when someone sits behind me watching me fish.

Mark Wintle said:

Yes, it was Phil who I fished with and who won that National with 33-8-0. Toulson was 4th fishing for the BAA.

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Thanks for that Mark. I did not realise John Toulon had been headhunted by Birmingham he was a Trent man through and through. After

you have completed your book on the National Championships maybe you could follow it with one on the Trentmen Match Team as your next project. Pete.

Pete, my book that I've just done is 'Ivan Marks and the Likely Lads' and due out late October; John Essex has done one on the history of the Nationals (1906 to 1983) but I don't know the current status as far as publication is concerned.

I have not fished with or met any top anglers. Nor have I read their books, I can appreciate the skill and dexterity they have acquired through lots of practice but match fishing has been a bit alien to me. To win lots of prestigious matches is a different art to my pleasure fishing, its very different when I think about it. I have not followed their careers very much or sought to emulate them. If I was a match angler it would have been different and I would have read more of their books etc. That's not taking anything away from them, just my own outlook.

Derek Gibson said:

Steve,

I don't think you can attribute success to having unlimited time to fish. Or indeed that ''every'' successful angler has access to exclusive or private waters. That would tend to imply that everyones skills are equal, and that just cannot be so. Yes, there are examples of luck, as there are anglers who virtually live on the bank,(time bandits) we used to call them.

But, accept the fact or not, some anglers do have an affinity for certain species. And it is my belief that those very anglers have studied the species over many years, in good and bad weather and water conditions, and can adapt their approach to maximise their chances. Of course you will never eliminate the buggeration factor as **** Walker so aptly named it of the ''fluke capture''. But those catches are just that, in other words a ''one off'',no consistency following them.

That's my opinion anyway.

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Very well put Derek and an opinion I entirely agree with.

True "top" anglers (I'll exclude the liars and bullsh!tters in this) don't become that good simply by fishing more often and/or on better waters. It takes true understanding of what's happening and how to approach things, learnt over many years of personal observation. There is no shortcut to that and the importance of watercraft, and understanding the weather, can't be over-emphasised imho. The tackle side goes hand in hand with watercraft but isn't anywhere near as important.

How can anyone know what to cast, when and where if they don't understand where the fish are or what they're doing??? Without knowing that it comes down to luck and good anglers try to cut the luck factor down as much as possible by using watercraft and technique.. we all do this to an extent.. deepening the float by an inch, changing lures, etc etc. The better this understanding, the more likely you are of putting your bait in the right spot at the right time, using the best method and tackle good enough to safely hook and land the fish.

As in all walks of life, we're all different. Our brains are wired differently and where one person will see a connection between things another might not.. it's just how we're built. We all know what we know and we're all ignorant of things we don't know.

Anglers are no different and no two are identical so as long as you're happy with the fishing you're doing and what you're catching, then all is good. :w