Bolt Rigs Gone Awry (Long Post)

Hi

I live in Bangladesh and fish in my own little fishery there ( I have posted on the "Intro" forum)

Recently while fishing there I have run into problems with the hooks on the bolt rigs i have been using. I am very new to bolt rigs and the like and much prefer to fish with a float outfit so it is probably something I am doing wrong. If you will bear with me I feel I have to set up the situation so you can get a clearer picture:

The setting:

The water is a small one of about 4 acres. It is stocked with Indian cyprinids and Cyprinus carpio.

The Fish:

Although one species, the Catla (Catla Catla) are there up to 20 lbs most of the fish average between 6 and 10 lbs.


Small Catla (Catla catla)


Rohu (Labeo rohita)


Mrigal (Cirhinus mrigala)


Mahseer (Tor putitora)



The pics show the approximate size of the fish I was dealing with.

the Equipment:

Rod - Hardy Marksman Smuggler Avon (casting weight 60 gms)

Reel - Shimano Baitrunner DL 4000 FB

Line - .33 mm

The rig consisted of a 2 oz lead (semi fixed) with a 5 inch braid hooklink

Bait -0 hair rigged sweetcorn

the problem was with the hooks.

I had any number of runs and hook ups but every time I wound down to the fish the hook would straighten and the fish would be off. Thinking I had the wrong type of hook on I changed to other types and had the same result.


From left: Owner size 4 model no: 5111-071 cutting point hook. Owner size 2 5111-091 cutting point, Mustad size 2 model unknown, Gamakatsu Octopus size 6 hook.

The photo shows some of the hooks that were straightened.

The thing was that while the bolt rig was doing its thing on the side I was fishing with a peacock quill at my rod tip with a Hardy marksman 13 ft float rod with hooks from the same packets and landing fish after fish without an issue. In fact the photos show some of the fish caught!

I was obviously doing something right as I was getting run after run and well hooked fish. but the hooks kept straightening!

I can only surmise that the bolt rigs being set up so that the fish is hooked in the bottom lip (I think) the hook point was not penetrating completely and thus all the strain was on the hook point when the shank was being pulled upwards by the fully bent rod causing the hook to straighten. But an Avon rod is hardly (in my opinion) such a powerful one as to straighten thick wire hooks. Also, the fish were on long enough for the hook point to have penetrated well enough and the hooks straightened on a couple of occasions when the reel was giving line smoothly under not very heavy drag!

Neither were the fish of such monstrous size that they had the power to straighten out hooks already tried and tested on them!

I would be delighted if you would tell me what I am doing wrong!

All the best

Lakhyaman

lakhyaman said:

...Neither were the fish of such monstrous size that they had the power to straighten out hooks already tried and tested on them!...

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A couple of thoughts Lakhyaman,
- Is it always the same species that straighten the hook?
- Have any of the species got particularly tough mouths - or bone-plate mouths - like some catfish species?

I also notice that the hook-barbs look very large (to me) - do you still get the same problem with barbless or micro-barb hooks?
(I'm not trying to start another barbed v. barbless war )
Do you also get the problem with smaller hooks (10-14) which would have less mechanical leverage between shank, bend and point?

Tight Lines :thumbs:

I am definitely no expert in this type of fishing but would offer the following -
1. The use of shrink tube would, from you picture, seem to be working against a good angle of pull.
2. A large fish will generate the necessary force to straighten these hooks to this degree given the right angles, a 2oz lead and the instant speed they can generate in their initial reaction to feeling the hook.

This force isn't available to them when you are float fishing.

I am slightly confused as to whether you landed the fish on any of these hooks such that you know what fish and where it's hooked, or if that is theory?

As to what you could try. Change the hook lengths (longer or shorter) and I would go for stronger smaller hooks and get rid of the shrink tube. Fwiw my experiences with gamahstu octopus circles (sea angling) is that they work massively better when attached via a loose loop than tied.

You certainly look as if you have a fun fishery there - interested to see how things develop.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

A couple of thoughts Lakhyaman,
- Is it always the same species that straighten the hook?
- Have any of the species got particularly tough mouths - or bone-plate mouths - like some catfish species?

I also notice that the hook-barbs look very large (to me) - do you still get the same problem with barbless or micro-barb hooks?
(I'm not trying to start another barbed v. barbless war )
Do you also get the problem with smaller hooks (10-14) which would have less mechanical leverage between shank, bend and point?

Click to expand...

greenie62

Thanks for your interest.

Re the fish: It is not the same species. On one occasion I got the fish near enough to clearly see it was a Catla of about 3 kgs. Again, the Rohu will invariably jump on being hooked, after an initial high speed run. I clearly saw the Rohu that did just that. It too straightened the hook on reentry and setting off on a second run. So the same fish were not responsible for the damaged hooks!

Most Bangladeshi anglers laugh at me for the "miniscule" size of the barb on the hooks I use! They use something that resembles the barb on Captain Ahab's harpoon! However I appreciate your point and have to say that I have not tried smaller barbed or barbless hooks! I suspect the penetration might be better. I will definitely try smaller hooks with better balance between hook point and bend and shank. Will report on that, but it could be a couple of weeks before I get there again. But I think that anything below size 10 will be too small for the fish.

The fish are all cyprinids and like the type specimen the common carp have similar leathery mouths and afford what can only be termed grand hookhold. However the mahseer is known to be capable of wrecking, including straightening, normal hooks and need ultra strong hooks. But they were not the only culprits. I suspect a good many were common carp!


duncan_m

1. The use of shrink tube would, from you picture, seem to be working against a good angle of pull.

Click to expand...

I actually used the silicon tube in various positions on the hook to determine the position of the hair. I started with it positioned on the shank so that the hair came out opposite the hook point. When the fish sucked in the bait it left the gape of the hook clear and did not impede penetration up to the bend. Later in desperation I moved the tube and thus the hair up to just where the bend started below the hook point with the idea that when the fished sucked it in it would force the hook to enter its mouth with the hook point upwards resulting in a hook hold in the upper lip or palate where the pull on the shank would work towards closing rather than straightening the hook! The results were the same - a straightened hook!

I am slightly confused as to whether you landed the fish on any of these hooks such that you know what fish and where it's hooked, or if that is theory?

Click to expand...

I did not succeed in landing a single one of the many hooked fish on the bolt rig. However, as related above, on two occasions I clearly saw the fish involved and they were of different species viz: a Rohu and a Catla.

I was fishing a 3 oz method feeder on another, much more powerful rod ( a Grey's Prodigy 2lb TC barbel rod) using a similar bolt hair rig set up which did produce a small 1.2 kg fish which I did land and the hook hold was in the lower lip. But the fish was very small and this may have been why it did not straighten the hook! The actual hook holds of the fish that got away are a theory based on the way the hair rig which I have copied from the internet is designed to hook on the lower lip and from the way the small fish that was landed was hooked.

I will certainly be chopping and changing hook lengths and hair positions as well as hook models till I find something that works.

The Gamakatsu hook I was using is not one of their circle hooks although it is an octoplus model. I have some in 4X the wire strength and will try these next time.

Regarding size of hook, I will try smaller models but if you see some of the videos of carp fishing in the USA you will see they use very large hooks and long hairs fully loaded with corn ( a string of corn almost) and bolt rigs and have no problem hooking and landing some big fish!

Thanks for your interest and advice. Will report back.

All the best

Lakhyaman

Looks like you've got some fun there!
Sorry I couldn't come up with an instant solution for you - but I hope you have a good time in sorting it out!

Hook sizes: Many of the commercial Carp Fisheries over here have a rule stating maximum hook sizes of 10 or 12 - as for the USA - dontcha know that everything's bigger in the States!

Tight Lines!

My point about the tubing was to keep it below the hook ' s eye - it looks capable of influencing thke angle of pull.

The size of hook was, as the other poster, related to the reduction in mechanical advantage from the wider gape. I've no doubt an Owner gorilla with appropriate bait would work fine in many sizes, and I don't know anything that swims that would straighten one, but it's avoiding the mechanical situation that is leading to yours being straightened that's interesting.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

I wish I could help, but I haven't a clue how this can be happening.
I note that this thread is in the "New member help" section; may I suggest that you re-post under the "Carp Fishing" heading? I think that would improve your chance of having that photo spotted by someone who's been living in bivvies, thinking about hair-rigs for decades.
Once a few of that type see the pics, their eyes will pop out on stalks* and there will be some big guns brought to bear on the problem... or the interweb will officially have ceased to be of any use.
Good luck, and keep us mere "danglers" posted!




*(To be read in a slightly impaired J. Clarkson voice): At least two of those brands are considered by many to be made from the same ore as Nothung, mined by elves, smelted by Vulcan and forged and sharpened by Weyland's heirs. And capable of towing a caravan as far as anyone might wish to.

duncan_m said:

My point about the tubing was to keep it below the hook's eye - it looks capable of influencing the angle of pull.

Click to expand...

That's the impression I got. Maybe a hook with a turned-down eye/Withy Pool style extension would result in less pressure being applied to the bend? Just a thought.

I'm not familiar with the hook patterns that you are using, but they look like a heavy wire gauge.... I'd suggest that the wire type hooks are the reason for straightening out..... I'd look at a forged hook pattern which are less likely to open out under pressure....

Use stronger hooks.

Interesting situation you've got there. Just one thought regards your reel, is the bait runner lever set on or off? the rear and front drag set to the correct tension?

Also do you adjust the front drag when playing fish?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P6YSk1i0TA

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[/COLOR]I have had hooks straighten out by carp when tenching etc. This was Animal hooks that are fairly strong,. When that has happened there have been times when a large scale has come back on the hook due to foul hooking.

I would bet this is the reason. The species of carp you are catching may feed in a different manner from the king carp here and this may possibly cause the problem of more foul hooking.

duncan_m

My point about the tubing was to keep it below the hook ' s eye - it looks capable of influencing thke angle of pull.

The size of hook was, as the other poster, related to the reduction in mechanical advantage from the wider gape. I've no doubt an Owner gorilla with appropriate bait would work fine in many sizes, and I don't know anything that swims that would straighten one, but it's avoiding the mechanical situation that is leading to yours being straightened that's interesting.

Click to expand...

I am not sure I am clear about the silicon tubing affecting the angle of pull. Since there is a knot above it the angle of pull of the main line is surely controlled by the knot and the angle of the eye. All the silicon tube does is control the position of the hair. However that position could if low enough on the bend prevent the hook from penetrating right up to the bend and thus influence the angle of pull, I suppose.

Nevertheless, I will certainly try without the tubing. I will try to change the mechanical situation in my favour by using different types of hooks especially with shorter shanks and in smaller sizes.

arthur2sheds

I'm not familiar with the hook patterns that you are using, but they look like a heavy wire gauge.... I'd suggest that the wire type hooks are the reason for straightening out..... I'd look at a forged hook pattern which are less likely to open out under pressure....

Click to expand...

The Gamakatsu Octopus size 6 that got straightened out is definitely a forged hook or so the company claims on its web site! However I have other forged hooks which I will put out the next time I fish there (next Friday to Sunday I hope).

law

Use stronger hooks.

Click to expand...

Yup. I will certainly be trying that too! However the hooks I was using were also being used on float gear right next to the bolt rig and were holding up flawlessly. As duncan_m pointed out there is something in the mechanics of the rig which is doing this and it would be interesting to see what it is. Nevertheless the problem may well be just the strength. Will give a Gamakatsu Octopus SE 4X forged hook size 6 a go next time. This being a stronger version of the hook that got straightened out.

laguna

Interesting situation you've got there. Just one thought regards your reel, is the bait runner lever set on or off? the rear and front drag set to the correct tension?

Also do you adjust the front drag when playing fish?

Click to expand...

Yes my baitrunner lever was set to allow that function to work effectively on a light drag. On hooking a fish I played it on the main drag which was set light as well. On one occasion the hook straightened after some little play and while on a run with the drag giving line smoothly and easily.

john step

I have had hooks straighten out by carp when tenching etc. This was Animal hooks that are fairly strong,. When that has happened there have been times when a large scale has come back on the hook due to foul hooking.

Click to expand...

I suppose it could happen but I am pretty sure at least some were hooked in the mouth and I did not get any scales coming back which did happen with the float rig (with the larger fish one does get liners resulting in strikes leading to the occasional foul hooking and "scale" but no straightened hook).

As a matter of fact trying out the rig for the first time the weekend before I did hook and land a Catla of 14 lbs 2 ozs with a size 4 Owner (one of the hooks that got straightened out in the debacle I have posted about).



As you can see the hook hold was in the upper corner of the mouth and the hook penetrated to the bend and thus the pull on the hook was much more in line with the shank. That was a size 4 Owner which also failed the next time round!

Thank you all for taking so much interest in my problem and giving me so many ideas and so much advice all of which I hope to try out next weekend.

All the best

Lakhyaman

your hook eye should turn inwards towards the hook point, otherwise all the leverage is at the wrong section of the hook, try using Korda Kranks or covert muggas tied K.D.. that is when you tie the knotless knot lift the hair up a couple of turns before the hookpoint and continue whipping below it for a couple of turns before going back through the eye.

Wanderer

Will do.

All the best

Lakhyaman

I've used those hooks in bigger sizes for UK catfish for years and have never bent one out, even with strong gear. I also used them for siamese carp to about 30lb without problems and although not 100% sure, I wouldn't have thought your species would fight significantly more.

The only possible way I can see that those hooks would bend like that is if the point didn't penetrate. That puts the whole hook under unusual pressure and they can bend a lot easier, as with all hooks.

Do your species have bony mouths?

I'm afraid your rig mechanics aren't quite right mate...

2oz for a bolt rig doesn't really work.. it's not heavy enough to prick the fish and makes it easy for them to spit it out. I'd suggest 3oz minimum to get the benefit of a bolt rig, preferably more.

Your problem isn't the hair tubing and although the 5111 hook is decent enough for pop-ups, it's out-turned eye isn't suited to bottom baits as it won't turn. For it to turn efficiently you need an angle bending inwards from the hook eye.. either an inturned eye or a 1cm length of bent shrink tube.

Owner do the same hook with a straight eye but if you want stronger then take a look at Gold Label penetrators and Catfish Pro BP Specials.

Personally I think those hooks should handle all the fish you mention so perhaps you just got a batch of duff hooks.

If you still get the problem with a heavier lead and different hooks then try lengthening your hooklink an inch at a time.. it may allow the hook to enter the mouth a bit more and find a proper hold.. not all fish pick up a bait, carp can suck food in from several inches away, which could lead to poor hook holds with too short a hooklink.

I'd be interested to hear if anything solves your problem.

Pointngo

Thanks for your interest. I am off fishing for the next three days in my fishery. So I will certainly try all that you and others have so kindly suggested. I will have at least two rods out so I can get comparisons of various rig set ups.

Will report soon.

All the best

Lakhyaman

No problem Lakhyaman.. I hope something works as I can't think of anything else! lol

Good luck.