Depth/Pressure effects on critically balanced baits

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binka

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Has anyone given this much thought?

I'm not talking about popped up baits where you can simply over kill the lead and the buoyancy in the bait but more in respect of neutral buoyancy at the depth being fished as opposed to dropping it in a shallow margin to "test" it.

In the same way a diver adds more weight to his belt to go deeper wouldn't this also affect a bait in the same manner, I'm thinking in particular of air injected worms in depths to around twenty feet?
 

thecrow

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Not something I have ever thought about but wouldn't the pressure (weight) of water be likely to force the injected air out of a worm. I have nothing to back this thought up and perhaps it would need much deeper water to do that.
 
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binka

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Not something I have ever thought about but wouldn't the pressure (weight) of water be likely to force the injected air out of a worm. I have nothing to back this thought up and perhaps it would need much deeper water to do that.

That's a good point... Maybe a reason for trying a different method of balancing? :confused:
 

S-Kippy

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That's a good point... Maybe a reason for trying a different method of balancing? :confused:

What...like fitting the worm with a buoyancy aid ? Why not just teach it to swim ?

I think you're over thinking this one, Steve. It might make a difference but unless you've got a 20 foot deep jam jar to test it out or scuba gear you'll never really know. If you think it's important then pop Mr Squab up with a bit of foam .

Hey...that's not a bad idea. Zig-Lob ! I'd better get on that before Korda bring a kit out !
 
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binka

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What...like fitting the worm with a buoyancy aid ? Why not just teach it to swim ?

I think you're over thinking this one, Steve. It might make a difference but unless you've got a 20 foot deep jam jar to test it out or scuba gear you'll never really know. If you think it's important then pop Mr Squab up with a bit of foam .

Hey...that's not a bad idea. Zig-Lob ! I'd better get on that before Korea bring a kit out !

Foam or a tiny poly ball was what I was thinking of after Graham's comments Skip, you're probably right about over thinking it as the problem hasn't yet cropped up although it did make me think which created the question.

Can't worms swim already? :D
 

S-Kippy

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Foam or a tiny poly ball was what I was thinking of after Graham's comments Skip, you're probably right about over thinking it as the problem hasn't yet cropped up although it did make me think which created the question.

Can't worms swim already? :D

It's not so much swimming as drowning with style......and as someone on here once observed they are rarely found 40 yards from the bank ! It's a fair point.

I'm not a great thinker but I do wonder if we don't sometimes make things more complicated than they need to be. One reason why the problem hasn't cropped up yet might be because there isn't one. Stick one out on a bit of foam and see what happens .....I've messed about trying to pop zander baits up to no discernible effect. I don't bother any more because much as worms don't swim dead roach don't hover.

The only time I might do this is if the bottom was covered in tom tit and I wanted to keep the bait clear of it.
 
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Andy M

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If I have done the sum correctly the volume of air in your worm would be reduced by about 0.4 of its volume at the surface so if it was just lifting at the surface it would probably sink when on the bottom but a bit of extra air would easily compensate. So, if on the surface it looked as though it was bobbing up nicely until stopped by the lead I suspect it would bob up in 20ft.... if any of that makes sense.
 

seth49

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You could always inject the worm with air. And cast it into deep water,then reel in and try it in the margin.
If it still floats its not expelled the air.
Used to catch a lot of trout,with air injected lobs, popped up about a foot from the bottom.
Must have been easier for them to see. Worked well.
 

wanderer

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me of air injected and the precise depth, the air would compress due to the column of water and air and atmospheric pressure at any volof the worm used, the ly complex
If I have done the sum correctly the volume of air in your worm would be reduced by about 0.4 of its volume at the surface so if it was just lifting at the surface it would probably sink when on the bottom but a bit of extra air would easily compensate. So, if on the surface it looked as though it was bobbing up nicely until stopped by the lead I suspect it would bob up in 20ft.... if any of that makes sense.

This would be an incredibly complex calculation, , dependant on the size of the worm, the atmospheric pressure at the time, and the size of the wound. Assuming there is no escape of air, the compressed air would retain the same amount of buoyancy though concentrated in a smaller area, in other words, forget it buddy, lifes to short, sling it out and hope something takes it.
 

laguna

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Love your kind of questioning Steve! :)
This is very relevant when fishing big deep pits and resi's as what pops up in a jar doesn't necessarily pop up or rise in deeper water. Two main factors are at play namely;
a. buoyancy
b. water pressure

As you know, the deeper you go, the greater the pressure
The more buoyant a bait (or object) is, the more it will counteract/compensate for the pressure and rise... but nothing like as much as it would in shallow water.

Air will compress easily, especially injected into a thin worm skin, whereas the air entrapped in cork or a polyball should (in theory) be a bit more boyant? An air injected worm retrieved would still float normally however.

As an alternative to worms, or maybe there's some floating worm lure to try? would be good with one of those hooks that float... Bigger, more buoyant baits are the way to go as are the type of material used at greater depth and who knows whats down there, there could be hundreds of years worth of silt? A long hooklink would be called for if you were to avoid the lead dragging it down.
Coloured poly balls wrapped in paste would be how I would approach the problem, either that or just a white/bright poly ball and a fast dissolving pva bag of feed/chum on the lead clip. To cast out any great distance maybe pva string attached to a stone as well as using the lead to hold bottom? Compensating then for the weight needed just enough to hold bottom once the pva strings gone.

When feeding, PVA bags don't melt so quickly at greater depth where its (usually) colder (with the exception in winter where surface layers are frozen, but its still cold) so maybe consider alternatives to pva such as a cage feeder? but bearing in mind... if its a long way down it might empty on its travels before it reaches bottom? I'm sure there's an alternative you can come up with.

Google says; A cubic metre of pure water at the temperature of maximum density (3.98 °C or 39.16 °F) and standard atmospheric pressure (101.325 kPa) has a mass of 1000 kg, or one tonne.
How that relates to the kind of water and depth your fishing is not so easy to interpret, but all I know is that water is never pure, temperatures and densities vary at certain levels as do atmospheric pressures.... this much I do know... anything over 10ft and my ears pop!

One last thought, and BTW there is no such thing as over thinking if it improves the way we fish :p... I imagine even a poly ball or cork ball at a depth of 30ft or more would act more like a wafter than a pop up?

Keep those questions and answers coming Steve and please don't be discouraged, its very thought provoking and some of us might learn a thing or two, we never stop learning! Good post mate.

NB. Tech please address server error I got when attempting to post earlier: Fatal error: Memcache is not installed in [path]/includes/class_datastore.php on line 186
 

no-one in particular

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It is interesting, oddly enough something I was thinking about yesterday re making fishing programs interesting; how often science comes into it. Below some figures gleaned from the net, pressure in pounds per sq inch at different depths, its quite a difference:-

1ft.=43psi
20ft= 8.67psi
30ft=13.01psi

PS Not my concern but I believe leeches are a protected species, just thought I would mention it
 
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wanderer

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It is interesting, oddly enough something I was thinking about yesterday re making fishing programs interesting; how often science comes into it. Below some figures gleaned from the net, pressure in pounds per sq inch at different depths, its quite a difference:-

1ft.=43psi
20ft= 8.67psi
30ft=13.01psi

PS Not my concern but I believe leeches are a protected species, just thought I would mention it

Those figures make no sense to me, leeches, the best cat bait there is, protected species, why , there are millions of them in any suitable lake.
 

laguna

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Leeches? hate em but the cats love em!

Mark can you confirm; a one inch column of pure water that’s one foot deep, weighs 0.433 lb and at 30ft (0.433 x 30) = 12.9 psi + 14.7 psi (normal atmospheric pressure) = almost two atmospheres?
 

no-one in particular

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Leeches? hate em but the cats love em!

Mark can you confirm; a one inch column of pure water that’s one foot deep, weighs 0.433 lb and at 30ft (0.433 x 30) = 12.9 psi + 14.7 psi (normal atmospheric pressure) = almost two atmospheres?

Got it from this Laguana, are you confusing weight with pressure "psi"
Feet Of Water to Pounds Per Square Inch | Kyle's Converter

No idea about leeches, saw it on a Tv programme once, apparently some gov.uk jobsworth decided leeches are getting rare and needed protecting. I just thought one day some anglers going to get it in the neck for using them and thought I would mention it as a warning, I wouldn't advertise it. However, check it out.

Did just find this:- The medicinal leech' is protected by inclusion on Schedule 5 of the Wildlife and
Countryside Act (1981),
So it might just be the medicinal leech but I think the TV program said all leeches but I could be wrong on that. Anyway just be careful or check it further yourselves just to be on the safe side. Although I doubt anyone's going to start looking at anglers bait, you never know in this day and age. The anti angling brigade wouldn't mind and theirs plenty of Gov jobsworths about.
 
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duncan_m

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It is interesting, oddly enough something I was thinking about yesterday re making fishing programs interesting; how often science comes into it. Below some figures gleaned from the net, pressure in pounds per sq inch at different depths, its quite a difference:-

1ft.=43psi
20ft= 8.67psi
30ft=13.01psi

PS Not my concern but I believe leeches are a protected species, just thought I would mention it
1ft is only 0.43psi....I think that's what's confused others.
It's not so much swimming as drowning with style......and as someone on here once observed they are rarely found 40 yards from the bank ! It's a fair point.

I'm not a great thinker but I do wonder if we don't sometimes make things more complicated than they need to be. One reason why the problem hasn't cropped up yet might be because there isn't one. Stick one out on a bit of foam and see what happens .....I've messed about trying to pop zander baits up to no discernible effect. I don't bother any more because much as worms don't swim dead roach don't hover.

The only time I might do this is if the bottom was covered in tom tit and I wanted to keep the bait clear of it.

If I have done the sum correctly the volume of air in your worm would be reduced by about 0.4 of its volume at the surface so if it was just lifting at the surface it would probably sink when on the bottom but a bit of extra air would easily compensate. So, if on the surface it looked as though it was bobbing up nicely until stopped by the lead I suspect it would bob up in 20ft.... if any of that makes sense.


On a boat or a bank - if possible
 

thecrow

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PS Not my concern but I believe leeches are a protected species, just thought I would mention it

Not that its anything to do with this thread but, medicinal leeches that can be purchased (at a price) are the ones to use, I cant see anyone collecting them "African Queen" style :)

---------- Post added at 11:30 ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 ----------

PS Not my concern but I believe leeches are a protected species, just thought I would mention it

There are around 6 species of leech in the uk, one that is used for bait is the medicinal leech, they are expensive and are purposely bred to be by medical people, cant see those being protected and any other type would be far to small to be used as a bait for catfish. Perhaps its the wild medicinal leech that is protected.

Can we get back on track to what is a very interesting thread.
 
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