Heavy Metal Pollution.

wanderer · Oct 31, 2015

I have brought this matter up before on another forum, it concerns the almost ritual dropping of leads by carp anglers. Lead is an extremely toxic metal, should we be dumping a couple of ounces into the water everytime we hook a fish. I use inline leads that do not come off, and where it is not suitable, heavy weed or the lilies, i have switched to non toxic plasticine, it is safer and unless you are casting miles it can be moulded to any shape you need, it drops off when snagged, big plus, its much cheaper as well. The PH of the water dissolves the tons of dumped lead we are dumping and its entry back in to the watercourse is inevitable, so the question for you is how do we stop this dangerous legacy that we leave for the future and does it concern you.

sam vimes · Oct 31, 2015

Reality is quite different to that which the tackle companies promote. Most people aren't daft enough, or wealthy enough, to routinely dump a lead unless circumstances (weed) dictate. Plenty of anglers, myself included, won't fish in a place where dumping a lead is an absolute necessity.

wanderer · Oct 31, 2015

Sam, you dont live in the South, you are quite wrong mate it is routine practice, i wish that it was otherwise, but that is not the case, problems ahead.

sam vimes · Oct 31, 2015

Too many brainwashed sheep with more money than sense then.

However, from all I've read on the topic, I suspect the problems ahead that concern you are probably overstated. Whilst hardly ideal, relatively large lumps of lead, even uncoated, don't present that big an issue.

wanderer · Oct 31, 2015

I hope you are right buddy, the acidity of the water and the design of the line clips give cause for concern, they are designed to drop leads on take, the theory is that the weight drag particularly in the larger sizes, the ones in France are rowed out and 6 ounces drop off is a not unusual weight, if maintained will pull the fish down into the weed, so must be released, this practice needs to stop.

The Sogster · Oct 31, 2015

The corporate induced jettisoning of leads is stupid but a good gimmick for them. It's hard to argue against safety hence your scaremongering thread Wanderer.

Apart from most leads being coated these days, as I understand it the lead is actually inert in the water, it is not dissolving like an alka seltzer.

I have some 1oz leads, been in my box and used for 30 years. Guess what - they still weigh one ounce.

How many leads have you replaced due to them losing weight caused by frequent immersion?

Indeed if lead was dissolving as you claim why dont my no 12 lead shot dissappear or appear smaller at the end of a session.

Not trying to be confrontational but commonsense and personal experience tells me that leads do not dissolve as you claim.

In the interest of science have you tested your claim, I.e. place a weighed lead in a bucket of lake water for a number of weeks and then either observed its disappearance or measured a change in weight?

P.S. I am aware of lead ingots being salvaged from shipwrecks hundreds or thousands of years old. How does this fit your theory?

wanderer · Oct 31, 2015

Lead is dissolved by acidity, fact, all metals are , if you beleivve that fine, carry on , i dont agree with you, i worked in engineering for many years and we needed to heat a ten percent acid solution to 70 degrees celsius, we used oil filled stainless steel radiaotors in big tanks , the average life of the radiator was a couple of months before oil pollution caused them to be changed, draw your own conclusions.

The Sogster · Oct 31, 2015

wanderer said:
Lead is dissolved by acidity, fact, all metals are , if you beleivve that fine, carry on , i dont agree with you, i worked in engineering for many years and we needed to heat a ten percent acid solution to 70 degrees celsius, we used oil filled stainless steel radiaotors in big tanks , the average life of the radiator was a couple of months before oil pollution caused them to be changed, draw your own conclusions.

This says nowt.

I don't disagree that acids can dissolve metals.

However, you don't state the acid and whether your lakes heated to 70 degrees celsius?

Also you state oil pollution caused the radiators to fail - what does this have to do with lead?

Please also answer my earlier questions. What are your personal observations of lead dissolving WHILST fishing.

robtherake · Nov 1, 2015

I don't want to intrude on a perfectly good argument, but I'm sure I read somewhere that the formation of insoluble lead carbonate on the surface of metallic lead in water largely prevents any further reaction. However, since lead pipes were blamed for sending us all barmy and were subsequently outlawed in domestic water systems....maybe the flow washed away the protective carbonate layer, exposing the lead to further reaction and causing a steady leaching of lead salts, insoluble or otherwise.

It'd be interesting to see a scientific paper or get a metallurgist's viewpoint. Is there a doctor (BSc) in the house?

barryjh · Nov 1, 2015

The science is beyond me; however, I hate the thought that something could be deliberately put into the water that would take hundreds(?), thousands(?) of years to break down (would it ever?). I can't stand litter bugs; isn't this the underwater equivalent? I would ban it personally, no question. Would we find it acceptable to "dump leads" anywhere else?

wanderer · Nov 1, 2015

The Sogster said:
This says nowt.

I don't disagree that acids can dissolve metals.

However, you don't state the acid and whether your lakes heated to 70 degrees celsius?

Also you state oil pollution caused the radiators to fail - what does this have to do with lead?

Please also answer my earlier questions. What are your personal observations of lead dissolving WHILST fishing.

The oil pollution of the tanks occured because the radiators were eaten through by the acid causing the oil to leak into the tanks. Very true about the lead water pipes and remembering a little history, didnt the guys who attempted to find the North West Passage die of lead poisoning after consuming food encased in lead to preserve it, whilst they were stuck in the ice flows.

S-Kippy · Nov 1, 2015

You are correct about a lot of sailors on those early exploration voyages dying from lead poisoning. This was the early days of tinned foodstuffs and they used lead solder to seal the tins. Bad call. Some fascinating books on the subject if a bit macabre.

As for dumping leads I don't know enough to have a view on the ecological issue. Im sure there may be certain situations where its the only option but to do this routinely just seems an incredibly stupid thing to do. But I am not and never will be a carp angler for which I give thanks every single day......so what do I know ?

wanderer · Nov 1, 2015

All you need to know Skip is that in most cases this is avoidable, people selling leads and safety clips need to have a rethink, otherwise a poisonous legacy will be the result.

john step · Nov 1, 2015

barryjh said:
The science is beyond me; however, I hate the thought that something could be deliberately put into the water that would take hundreds(?), thousands(?) of years to break down (would it ever?). I can't stand litter bugs; isn't this the underwater equivalent? I would ban it personally, no question. Would we find it acceptable to "dump leads" anywhere else?

Exactly spot on.
Plus on a personal note the thought of dumping an item costing over £1 each take would cause me to loose sleep

This subject has cropped up before. When it did I quoted a dip stick of an "angler" who wrote an article in Anglers Mail boasting/gloating that the best spot for a take on a French water was a small bar raised above the surrounding lake bed that CONSISTED ENTIRELY OF DUMPED LEADS.
Even allowing for the exagerations of a simpleton it still beggars belief.

thecrow · Nov 1, 2015

If lead is so soluble in water why are our copper water pipes not all leaking? they are soldered together unless I am mistaken with solder made from lead.

dann · Nov 1, 2015

If I am not mistaken, all old water main pipes were lead. Some still remain even now so I can't see it being that soluble or the pipes would have dissolved.

iannate · Nov 1, 2015

Dumping leads isn't new and isn't just the domain of carp anglers, rotten / weak links etc were used many years before it became a go to method for some of them what have more money than sense.

I don't agree with it on principle of a) loosing money and b) rubbish dumping, also I'm not convinced such large leads are required.

Lead shot was banned because (if my memory serves) wild life were found to have eaten it and died from it; this was never proved and was speculation.

We should support moves to protect wildlife and our waterways though.

The Sogster · Nov 1, 2015

wanderer said:
The oil pollution of the tanks occured because the radiators were eaten through by the acid causing the oil to leak into the tanks. Very true about the lead water pipes and remembering a little history, didnt the guys who attempted to find the North West Passage die of lead poisoning after consuming food encased in lead to preserve it, whilst they were stuck in the ice flows.

Wanderer, you still haven't answered my questions.

What was the acid in the tanks, is it the same acid in your lakes and are they also heated to 70 degrees?

Have you personally witnessed your leads dissolving before your eyes?

There are also other questions.
How many dead fish or other wild animals from your lakes have been identified as being poisoned by leads dumped by anglers.

How has the lead content of your lakes increased - I presume this has been measured.

Looking forward to your replies.

Heavy Metal Pollution.

wanderer

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sam vimes

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wanderer

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sam vimes

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wanderer

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The Sogster

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wanderer

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The Sogster

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robtherake

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barryjh

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wanderer

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S-Kippy

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wanderer

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john step

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thecrow

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dann

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iannate

The fish made me do it!

The Sogster

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