Flooding defensive strategies

laguna

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While there's public concern for homes and property calling for defensive strategies, dredging is certainly not the answer.
Dredging ruins an ecosystem and it fills back in again due to the increase and speed of new flow. I'm surprised there's little to no mention of fish spawning grounds and gravel banks being spoiled in the news. But then I suppose this is the last thing on most people's minds when their homes are being flooded, and besides, fish are not cuddly or seen much by the average public to care about.

Floodplains are important but are only part of the answer. As long as man wishes to live in lowlands next to the waters edge, we need a more balanced approach to the problem. Higher banks and relief channels along the rivers around towns and villages will divert a lot of the deluge but also natural floodplains need to be utilised as part of any flood relief scheme too. In areas of particular risk, vast deep reservoirs open or underground/covered can also be dug strategically so as to avoid excessive crop spoilage on farming land. These would also provide refuge for birds and wildlife as well as being used as a source of water to lessen the burden of abstraction in times of drought in some lowland areas.

The trouble with this country is we get too much water when we don't need it and not enough when we do. Its about time we saved some for a sunny day!
 

wanderer

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You are right, we have balancer lakes defending the town, great idea, but i am not sure the deluge that has hit the North could be dealt with in this way. The old flood plain used to cope but it has now been built on, the rivers Nene and Ouse used to spread for miles harmlessly across water meadows that now contain houses, sheer folly, they need to go back to the drawing board and stop this madness.
 

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The only certainty here is that Dredging is not the answer.

The government have set aside £2.3 billion over the life of this Parliament as the budget for improving our flood defenses.

It remains to be seen as to how this is spent, but I believe that this is a golden opportunity for the Angling Trust to become deeply involved in the reviews and the decision making process, and thereby doing the job of protecting the interests of anglers and angling!

Having recently "won" a multi million pound "contract" from the EA let's see them spending a good part of it defending angling in what is guaranteed to be a hue and cry from the generally uneducated public for more, reckless dredging.
 
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theartist

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Unless i've become desensitized to it I didn't hear as much Knee jerk calls for dredging as much this time round. Maybe it's due to it coming off the hills more and the geography of the region compared to that of Somerset the other year.

Hopefully the dredging isn't the answer message might be getting through although that may be wishful thinking.

One thing that's guaranteed is the EA will be getting the blame culture regardless so I hope our licence money doesn't get put into millions of research that comes to the conclusion that it just rained too much.
 
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I'm amazed that some people who I've listened to on the news really believe that dredging is the solution to what is very much a worsening climate change problem, and one that's very much here to stay imo.

I can understand fully people's anger and desperation along with the urgency with which they need to see improvements but dredging is just a (relatively) cheap and largely ineffective answer which I fear will be the government and the EA's knee jerk and largely ineffective response to appease those affected.

How many hundred year weather events have we now had over the last fifteen years or so?

It must be dozens!

My own theory, for what appears to me to be government denial of a more consistent problem, is that they are using the "weather event" excuse to simply put off having to spend a huge amount of money in one go and leave the problem to fester for the next government to kick down the street in the same manner.

I can't help thinking that collectively this avoidance of responsibility is costing far more in the long run and causing far more heartbreak for those affected, some repeatedly, and all for the sake of political manoeuvring.

I think there would be more than a few red faces both at national policy level and local planning where floodplains have been built upon, not to mention the embarrassing U-turn which is required.

You just have to look at the sheer volume of water to see that a few extra feet of river depth with increased speed of passage is barely going to make a dent on the issue and unless this speed of passage is consistent all the way to adjoining rivers, consistent along the main rivers and eventually all the way to estuarine regions then it's only going to create a bottle-neck and a bigger problem for people downstream.

I hope that wasn't too political but it seems unavoidable in the context of the discussion and is not just aimed at the present government but also at governments before it who sit on both sides of The House.
 

Peter Jacobs

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Steve,

Given that this topic affects our sport then I consider it to be within the realms of Angling politics.

That said, remember that this government have set aside a budget of £2.3 billion over the life of this Parliament to be spent wholly on flood defense mechanisms.

What the Country needs is to do a complete rethink on the flood defenses as dredging is simply not the answer, and with that sort of money budgeted then my view is that the Angling trust should be front and centre in offering our views on the matter.

UK floods: 'Complete rethink needed' on flood defences - BBC News

Right now we seem to be suffering an almost identical El, Nino as was evident back in 1998. In fact our Met' Office warned of this back in September this year:

Met office: strongest El Nino since 1950 on the way - BBC News
 

S-Kippy

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.......it's only going to create a bottle-neck and a bigger problem for people downstream.

Which is exactly what happened down here a couple of winters ago after they built the "Jubilee River" on the Thames aka the Maidenhead Flood Relief channel. It worked fine during "normal" weather but when it was the South's turn to get battered the extra water simply charged downstream and flooded everywhere below where the relief channel emptied back out into the main river. Datchet in particular got absolutely mullered. Sandbags were going for £25 a pop at one point and no shortage of buyers either.

They ripped out some damned fine chub swims downstream of the railway bridge at Windsor to build it too...the bar$tids !
 
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john step

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It always takes several disasters to get something done. Hopefully we are at a stage when that happens now.

Also just a thought....I just wish people would refuse to buy or rent new properties being built in risky areas. If the builders couldn't sell them they wouldn't build them there.
They would concentrate on more empty brown field sites and less green belt and flood plains.
 

greenie62

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....I just wish people would refuse to buy or rent new properties being built in risky areas. If the builders couldn't sell them they wouldn't build them there...

Perhaps the cost of insurance will put people off buying them! :eek:
- Oh - what? - no history of problems here - say the builders - Ok says the insurers - no risk there then - they wouldn't have got planning permission if there was a problem - would they?! :rolleyes::eek::eek:mg:

----------------------------------​

This piccy from the Clitheroe Advertiser shows a spot on the A59 near Whalley Arches.
Whalley%20Arches_zpsozgsbqd7.jpg


Makes ya wonder - dunnit!? :eek::eek:mg:
 

thecrow

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You are right, we have balancer lakes defending the town, great idea, but i am not sure the deluge that has hit the North could be dealt with in this way. The old flood plain used to cope but it has now been built on, the rivers Nene and Ouse used to spread for miles harmlessly across water meadows that now contain houses, sheer folly, they need to go back to the drawing board and stop this madness.


To late I am afraid unless they intend digging up most of the concrete and tarmac that has covered massive areas of this country in just my lifetime, its the same problem as to little water, to many people squashed into a small island.

---------- Post added at 14:57 ---------- Previous post was at 14:54 ----------

Ok says the insurers - no risk there then

I didn't catch it all but I am sure I heard on the news this morning that a special scheme is to be set up to provide affordable insurance for those living in areas that are a flood risk.

---------- Post added at 15:02 ---------- Previous post was at 14:57 ----------

My own theory, for what appears to me to be government denial of a more consistent problem, is that they are using the "weather event" excuse to simply put off having to spend a huge amount of money in one go and leave the problem to fester for the next government to kick down the street in the same manner.

Perhaps if all uk governments spent the same amount on looking after this country instead of sending it abroad to countries that spend their own on sending a rocket to Mars or where it ends up in the pockets of the corrupt things might get done
 

greenie62

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...I didn't catch it all but I am sure I heard on the news this morning that a special scheme is to be set up to provide affordable insurance for those living in areas that are a flood risk.

Is this the promise they made last time - or another scheme? :confused:
Confused? - So its working well then isn't it?
There have already been complaints that the Insurance subsidy scheme wasn't working properly with victims being unable to access funds from the scheme - or obtain subsidised insurance - so there's some room for improvement then!

Confused.com OR Confused.gov.uk - your choice! :rolleyes::eek:mg:
 

sam vimes

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There's a lot going on with regards to the rivers that rise in the Pennines (and, I guess, other similar upland areas). You rarely see any mention of one of them.

What we accept as normal summer level is well down on what was normal thirty years ago. Many of the small tributaries are a pale shadow of what they once were. The rivers rise very rapidly and drop off just as quickly. We abstract when the levels are at their lowest and rush the excess to the sea as quickly as possible when it rains.

One of the biggest contributors to the problems has been the relatively recent cutting of peat channels. Once upon a time, large swathes of the Pennines was like a dirty great sponge. As a kid I trogged over plenty of it. Even in red hot summer conditions it wasn't unusual to all but disappear into soft soggy spots. Because of this, unless you had fairly specific weather conditions, the rivers rose and dropped more slowly than they do now. They are desperately trying to reverse the damage done, but I believe it's proving far from easy. The Yorkshire Peat Partnership, in conjunction with The Yorkshire Wildlife Trust

I'm reasonably dubious about the weather being so much worse now than it has been in the past. The fact that more extreme flooding still results suggests that it's things that we are doing, and have done, that causes much of the problem. The likes of York have flooded on a fairly regular basis for centuries. Though I know we have made things worse, I doubt that there is anything we can do to eradicate it happening.

Those affected by flooding have my sympathy. I know from experience that it's an ordeal. However, living beside a watercourse, of any kind, is inviting trouble. It's much like those that live on various parts of the east coast. Sooner or later land erosion is going to threaten their homes and, realistically, there's not a great deal we can do about it.
 
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maggot_dangler

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To late I am afraid unless they intend digging up most of the concrete and tarmac that has covered massive areas of this country in just my lifetime, its the same problem as to little water, to many people squashed into a small island.

---------- Post added at 14:57 ---------- Previous post was at 14:54 ----------



I didn't catch it all but I am sure I heard on the news this morning that a special scheme is to be set up to provide affordable insurance for those living in areas that are a flood risk.

---------- Post added at 15:02 ---------- Previous post was at 14:57 ----------



Perhaps if all uk governments spent the same amount on looking after this country instead of sending it abroad to countries that spend their own on sending a rocket to Mars or where it ends up in the pockets of the corrupt things might get done
Please Sir can I drive the first JCB in to start the clearances return us to some level of of sanity as far as building goes
PG...


Sent from my 8055 using Tapatalk
 

laguna

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Read this. The full article reproduced below. It confirms all we thought we knew and more besides...

Going Downhill Fast!

How public money and crazy policies speed water off the land and into our homes

By George Monbiot, published in the Guardian 30th December 2015


These floods were not just predictable. They were predicted. There were clear and specific warnings that the management of land upstream of the towns now featuring in the news would lead to disaster.

On December 9, one of my readers told me this. “I live in the middle of Foss drainage board land above York, where flooding would not harm a single property but water is sent down as fast as possible to York”. A few days later, another reader wrote to me, warning that “upstream flood banks now protect crops, not the City of York.” On December 26th, the Foss exploded into York.

It’s a complaint I’ve heard repeatedly: internal drainage boards, that are public bodies but tend to be mostly controlled by landowners, often prioritise the protection of farmland above the safety of towns and cities downstream. By straightening, embanking and dredging rivers where they cut through fields, drainage boards accelerate the flow of water, making flooding downstream more likely. When heavy rain falls, some land must flood. We have a choice: fields or cities; and all over Britain we have chosen badly.

For several years, campaigners in Hebden Bridge have been begging the government to stop the drainage and burning of the grouse moors upstream. Eighteen months ago, I visited the town, where activists told me that, thanks to the damage inflicted on the bogs and deep vegetation of the moors, which reduces their capacity to hold water, it was only a matter of time before Hebden Bridge was wrecked again by flash floods. Their warnings were not just ignored, but – if such a thing is possible – actively disregarded.

In 2002, Walshaw Moor, a 6,500 acre grouse shooting estate upstream of Hebden Bridge, was bought by the retail tycoon Richard Bannister. Satellite images before and after show a transformation of the land: a great intensification of burning and draining. These activities raise the number of grouse, which in turns raises the amount (running into thousands per person per day) that people will pay to shoot them.

In 2011, the government body Natural England did something very rare: it launched a prosecution of the estate, citing “illegal works” on the moor. The estate was charged with 45 offences, 30 of which involved building allegedly unauthorised drainage channels. It denied all criminal activity. In 2012, as Mark Avery documents in his book Inglorious, something very odd happened. After £1m had been spent on the case, it was suddenly dropped. Instead, Natural England struck an agreement with the estate, under which the owner of Walshaw Moor would be given £2.5m of public money, in the form of a special package of enhanced farm subsidies, to carry on more or less as before, without reversing the allegedly illegal works.

Avery’s freedom of information requests, seeking to discover why this astonishing reversal took place, have been repeatedly blocked, so there is no definitive explanation. But we know that the minister responsible at the time, Richard Benyon, is himself a grouse moor owner, and was lobbied over this period by the Moorland Association, which represents other grouse moor owners. We have no way of knowing whether these facts are related, and I cannot make a direct connection between the management of Walshaw Moor and the present flooding of Hebden Bridge. But there’s little doubt that the? ?management of grouse moors tends to increase the risk of flooding.

Though grouse moors stretch the definition of agricultural land to breaking point, they remain eligible for public money in the form of farm subsidies. In 2014, as essential public services were hacked back, the government quietly raised the money to which they are entitled by 84%. Maximising the number of grouse means treating the moors as if they were giant chicken runs, draining the land, eradicating predators and competitors and burning the heather to stimulate the young shoots on which grouse feed. If the proles downstream are flooded out their homes, really, who cares?

Similar irrationalities abound. Farm subsidies everywhere are conditional on the land being in “agricultural condition”. This does not mean that any actual farming has to take place there: only that it looks like farmland. Any land covered by “permanent ineligible features” is disqualified. What does this mean? Wildlife habitat. If farmers don’t keep the hills bare, they don’t get their money. Scrub, regenerating woodland, forested gullies, ponds and other features that harbour wildlife and hold back water must be cleared. European rules insist that we pay farmers to help flood our homes.

The British government wants to deregulate dredging and channel clearance, to allow farmers to shift water off their land more quickly. It was instrumental in destroying the proposed European Soil Framework Directive, which would have reduced flooding by preventing the erosion and compaction of the soil.

There are signs that this antediluvian thinking is beginning to shift. Rory Stewart, the minister in charge of floods, once mocked the organisations seeking to hold back water on farmland rather than letting it rush into homes. But on Saturday he told the Today programme that we need more trees in the hills and should let our rivers meander once more. It was so welcome and surprising that it felt like a parting of the waters.

Building higher walls will not, by itself, protect our towns. We need flood prevention as well as flood defence. This means woodland and functioning bogs on the hills. It means dead wood and gravel banks and other such obstructions in the upper reaches of the streams (beavers will do such work for nothing). It means pulling down embankments to reconnect rivers to their floodplains, flooding fields instead of towns. It means allowing rivers to meander and braid. It means creating buffer zones around their banks: places where trees, shrubs, reeds and long grass are allowed to grow, providing what engineers call hydraulic roughness. It means the opposite of the orgy of self-destruction that decades of government and European policy have encouraged: grazing, mowing, burning, draining, canalisation and dredging.

Natural flood management of this kind does not guarantee that urban floods will never happen. But its absence exacerbates them. Yes, Britain has been hit by massive storms and record rainfall. But it has also been hit by incompetence, ignorance and concessions to favoured interests. This, at least, we can change.
 

Pete Shears

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The old water meadows used to use a lot of winter floodwater & protect the grass from frosts & snow enabling the farmers to drain them in March & get the cattle out of the barns & onto fresh grass earlier,all we have now is houses on them.
Also the French use winter floodwater having built barrages on the main rivers where excess water can be diverted to form massive lakes which then can serve as wildlife refuges, fishing, sailing, camping and supply water in long hot summers,all we seem to do is get into the sea as fast as possible so it then becomes a problem for the Coastguard.
 

keora

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Looking at the the news on TV and in the papers during the recent floods, it's not easy to get unbiased opinions about the pros and cons of dredging our rivers.

This report by the organisation Blueprint for Water is useful as it presents both sides of the argument:

http://blueprintforwater.org.uk/wp-... and Dredging - A Reality Check [2014 02].pdf

Here's a summary:

The term dredging is routinely used to refer to the systematic removal of accumulated
material from river or other watercourse channels. In its most extreme form dredging may be
used to re-align river channels creating linear, canalised watercourses.

• It would be infeasible to dredge channels with the capacity to carry flood flows of the kind
witnessed this winter (2013/14). However, there is significant evidence that dredging can
increase channel conveyance, reducing water levels and small floods.

• This is borne out by studies of the Somerset Level and Moors system which suggest that the
proposed dredge would have not prevented flooding but could significantly reduce the length
of time water stands on the land.

• Numerous studies have pointed to significant unintended consequences of dredging, namely:
o Increasing flood risk for communities downstream by speeding up the movement of flood
water through the river and drainage network.
o Destabilising river banks, causing erosion and so risking damage to infrastructure.
o Loss of wildlife and habitats both within the river and across the wider floodplain. These
impacts can be significant and permanent.

• It is also important to note that dredging can be a conservation tool, particularly in heavily
modified environments where natural processes that maintain ecosystem function are
constrained.

• Flood risk management strategies should look to a range of interventions, and include action
to reduce runoff by working with natural practices to slow water, and increase infiltration and
storage throughout the catchment.

• Strategies will also need to manage the use of naturally flood prone land through a
combination of behavioural and engineering options, including flood zoning, warning, changes
in land use practices, as well as flood defence structures and operations.



• Land management lies at the heart of these strategies, so the design of farm subsidies and
engagement with stakeholders, especially landowners, land managers and farmers is critical
to flood risk management. The Catchment Based Approach provides a platform for this
engagement.

We conclude that dredging can play an important role in
flood risk management in some cases, but is not a standalone
solution. It should be considered in the context of
a range of tools and the origins of different sources of
flood water, and comes with significant risks that must be
understood at a local and catchment scale
 
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laguna

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Localised dredging increases flow capacity allowing further erosion and flooding downstream... where even more dredging would be required throughout its length wiping out an whole ecosystem.

Its a question of; A deeper bucket (dredging), a wider bucket (with or without build up sides) or a hole in the bucket connected to more buckets (floodplains and lakes)?

I would say that we need more buckets with holes in.
 

Windy

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Hold your horses there boys, no need to panic.

It turns out that the Environment Agency has looked back in its oldest archives and has found the answer to all our problems.

Seems there was this chap Canute.... :eek:mg:


PS. Mark Avery's book Inglorious would be of more use in the debate if it wasn't so obviously a pro-birdie RSPB (enormously funded and richest charity in the kingdom) anti all hunting piece of polemic. If we anglers get into bed with abolitionists then don't hold your breath for the day the RSPB come after us to ban angling so as to preserve the fish stocks for aquatic and wading birds.... or some other such bowlocks. The days when the RSPCA and RSPB were run by anyone with an ounce of common sense has long since departed, along with the Kid's Company money and all the other abuses of the Charity sector.
 
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wanderer

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Hold your horses there boys, no need to panic.

It turns out that the Environment Agency has looked back in its oldest archives and has found the answer to all our problems.

Seems there was this chap Canute.... :eek:mg:


PS. Mark Avery's book Inglorious would be of more use in the debate if it wasn't so obviously a pro-birdie RSPB (enormously funded and richest charity in the kingdom) anti all hunting piece of polemic. If we anglers get into bed with abolitionists then don't hold your breath for the day the RSPB come after us to ban angling so as to preserve the fish stocks for aquatic and wading birds.... or some other such bowlocks. The days when the RSPCA and RSPB were run by anyone with an ounce of common sense has long since departed, along with the Kid's Company money and all the other abuses of the Charity sector.
You definitely see the dangers buddy, lets hope more people take your wider view.
 

chub_on_the_block

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The last few years has witnessed exceptional, unprecedented flooding events all around the world - so theres good evidence in my view that these are linked to climate change. Add the fact that 2015 will be the warmest ever recorded. With more energy in weather systems - and more excessive heat, wet, wind - it is understandable that weather events can be more extreme.

Answers? in my opinion the best i have heard of/read about involve:
a) stop building in flood plain
b) start to regulate catchment land use eg restore tree cover in upland areas
c) restore meanders wetlands etc to retain excess rainfall and to release it more slowly rather than move it away as fast as possible to the first bottleneck downstream (often a town where impact is worse).
d) make properties more resilient so when **** happens recovery is faster.

I doubt the EA has the backbone or influence it needs to really get to grips with these issues in those ways. Landowner rights here are supreme and the history of water management in UK is not great. Traditionally, Water Authority flood operations teams were engineers - their solutions involved the "black and white" solutions provided by straightening and deepening rather than more considered options. River engineering operations were produced at enormous cost (financial and ecological) and were were rife in the 1960s or 70s when a lot of rivers were badly affected by such "improvements". T am not saying that all dredging is bad here - these works usually went well beyond that in any event and left many dysfunctional rivers no longer connected to their historical floodplains.

Examples include the River Ivel which Richard Walker, i believe, witnessed and wrote about at the time. Today all that is apparent is that the river has rather tall banks in places and doesnt meander about very much in some reaches - in the intervening years the artificial realignments have naturalised as plants have become established in the river and along the banks. Other schemes are more extreme - eg the Mole/Ember Flood Alleviation Scheme - completed in the mid 1980s - and one of the last major schemes of this type (45 degree barely accessible banks, over-wide over-deep and straightened course regulated by weirs/control structures: original sinuous course with riffles, pools, diverse riverside habitats and ecologically valuable river corridor simply filled in). However the Lee Flood Channel in North London and those like it are possibly the most extreme examples i have seen - here a wildlife-rich valley and important fisheries of the Lee valley gives way to a concrete lined channel with vertical banks and a trapezoidal profile useless for anything except conveying water as fast as possible - it requires fencing and costly fence maintenance to prevent anyone getting too close or falling into it.
 
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