Nice fish, but is it angling?

Sean Meeghan · Oct 28, 2008

I read the feature on the new "world record" carp in todays AT and then it struck me.....

You see, the fish was caught by delivering the end tackle into the swim using a bait boat. Of course the fish could have been caught in a swim beyond reasonable casting range, or in a tiny hole in the weed too small for the angler to cast to.

So, ask yourself this question. If the fish was a British record should it count? Now I'm certain that under the present rules it would, but should it? Where does the use of a bait boat stop? They are already used in piking and carping, but what about lure fishing, fly fishing or long range roach fishing?

Congratulations to Andre Komornicki for a great catch on a legal method. This isn't a criticism of him, but something I feel should be debated.

Ginger · Oct 28, 2008

Difficult question Sean.

How about the use of a pole to deliver your end tackle in a river, where casting a bait wouldn`t be possible.

Didn`t Grahame King use this tactic to catch the record Barbel from the Ouse?

I believe Dean Macey also uses this method on the Lea.

Is that any different to using a bait boat ?

Wolfman Woody · Oct 28, 2008

I don't wish to take anything away from Andre's catch, I can't anyway. He caught it fare and square and it was properly weighed with the right witnesses etc.

The method and mechanisms he used to catch it is quite irrelevant providing the final take and the fight was with rod and line. In fact, well done Andre! (fellow Buckinghamshirite being just 10 miles away from me).

The problem I have is that this fish, already nurtured and cared for with kid gloves, will probably be recaught several times before its time here on earth is through. If it continues to gain weight then we could see a ton-up carp, but any jack-the-lad will be able to catch it. Just a matter of booking the holiday and putting your bait being in the right swim at the right time.

I shan't be chasing it, that's for sure.

Not envious either, I don't like mirrors particularly - bred for the table and that's it for me.

Mark Hewitt · Oct 28, 2008

Good point Sean, I can understand your wish for discussion.

I can't myself see anyway of changing things though. Yes the bait boat takes away the 'art or skill' of casting to a fish, but so to, do other aspects of the sport - such as pole fishing (as mentioned). Would it be any less of an achievment if the fish had been caught from the margins with a 'bait lowered into a gap'?

Also what about fish such as Pike and Trout ect caught by boat anglers in areas out of casting range? Should these be un-legible for a record claim?

Peter Jacobs · Oct 28, 2008

I am of a similar mind to both Sean and Jeff, but then I am also of that 'age' where I have to admit that I have seriously considered buying a bait boat.

It is just my 'traditionalist' approach that holds me back if I were to be totally honest. And yet, my eye sight is beginning to fade a little, but then also is my ability to carry a shed-load of kit (incliuding a bait boat) to a swim on a Carp lake.

A difficult and intreguing debate to be sure.

When I am incapable of casting to a shoal of Roach though then it will be time to sell-off my 'tart-ist' collection of tackle!

Mark Hewitt · Oct 28, 2008

Is a using a bait boat any different to rowing a bait out?

Or fishing from a boat?

I don't own one, and I'm a bit of a traditionalist at heart - so I understand the reasons for the discussion. But with a level head I can't see a sound argument against them.

Sean Meeghan · Oct 28, 2008

I raised the point because I feel we're rapidly approaching a point where we have to define "fair" angling It might well include the use of a bait boat to deliver our end tackle, but what else does it include? Could we troll adead baitbehind a bait boat? Are they OK for roach fishing? What about the floating pole?

To a certain extent modern techniques are deskilling angling (underwater cameras for fish location?) and maybe we need to draw the line on acceptability.

There is of course the danger that we will end up with artificial rules such as the ridiculous dry fly and upstream nymph only of the southern chalkstreams.

Where would you draw the line?

My view is that the bait should be cast into the swim or delivered by means of a pole that can be lifted by the angler and that the fish is played and landed on.How about that for starters?

GreyFox · Oct 28, 2008

Well, Sean, for a start why include lifting the bait into a swim by means of a pole......where's the skill in that?

If you are going to decry modern equipment, how far back are you going to go to determine the starting point?

Pre- fixed spool reels?

No floats other than manufactured from bird quills?

Baitboats prevent an awful lot of festooned lines and tackle dangling from bushes and vegatation and are no more an 'easy' method to catch fish than spodding, pre groundbaiting, maggot bagging or using a feeder.

Bring back braided horsehair lines, catgut and greenheart rods eh?

Mark Hewitt · Oct 28, 2008

I agree in principle Sean, but how do you regard fishing from a boat?

Sean Meeghan · Oct 28, 2008

If boats are allowed on the fishery then there's no problem.

Poles predate rods by a fair bit and so I don't see any reason to disallow them.

The thought of allowing only Victorian technology does appeal rather! Lets draw the line at 1900 shall we? Rods made from wood harvested from carefully managed forests, braided silk lines, wooden star-back reels, tweed jackets. Lovely - just like Chris Yates!

GreyFox · Oct 28, 2008

How about casting heavy baits long distances?

How would you target cats on the Ebro, Sean, without rowing out baits or using a boat?

Personally, I loathe poles - with the need to have feet of clear space behind the angler to allow for unshipping, and where's the skill in presentation of baits using them? Certainly not in the same league as fishing a far bank waggler or trotting with a stick float.

I wouldn't decry a record fish caught using one though, and want the declared 'foul play'.

GreyFox · Oct 28, 2008

If boats allowed on the fishery is ok, why not bait boats where they are allowed?

Can't see much difference, except for passengers.

Sean Meeghan · Oct 28, 2008

I'd target cats the way the local do mate - uptide rods and deadbaits! Personally I'd sooner fish for bass on the Ebro but each to his own!

Fishing from a boat is no different from fishing from the bank. If a boat is allowed then so be it, but in my opinion a bait boat is just taking things a bit too far. Are we going to loimit the range at which people fish. What is a safe distance beyond wich we shouldn't fish?

Just because you loathe an item of tackle doesn't mean it should be banned. Are we going to allow the barbel record to be claimed from a commercial puddle when a biggie is caught (as it will)?

GreyFox · Oct 28, 2008

Ah.. I'd say no to disallowing the hypothetical barbel from a stillwater commercial, the chub record is already stillwater. Should we, on that basis, disallow all carp records where the fish can be shown NOT to be authentic wild strains?

Should all trout records from commercial fisheries be similarly disallowed?

Ps. I didn't say ban the pole, I merely pointed out that I loathe them. In fact, I said any record fish caught using one should be allowed>

I can see your point, but I think the route you propose is akin to 'political correctness' in angling. /forum/smilies/smile_smiley.gif

GreyFox · Oct 28, 2008

PPs. Most folks I have seen using baitboats use them at far shorter range than say, Frank Warwick, can cast. Should he, and others with the ability and tackle, have their casting range limited because other anglers have (perhaps) neither the ability nor Centurys and Tournament Basias?

Sean Meeghan · Oct 28, 2008

True GF butall sports (real sports that is) have codes of ethics that are understood by all involved. It's not trying to impose a bit of PC, but just asking the question what we consider to be "fair" and acceptable. It is after all our sport and we can write the rules.

Or can we?

Sean Meeghan · Oct 28, 2008

That's the point though. Given the right tackle (which is cheaper than a bait boat) and a bit of skill you can fish at approximately the same range as these guys give or take a few metres.

My point is exactly that - many people use bait boats at shorter ranges than they can cast. That de-skills their fishing to the same extent that using a pole would.

And while we're at it what about the use of barrows to carry everyhome comfort imaginable to a swim - banning them would make some of the long stay guys think twice about it!

Philip · Oct 28, 2008

Good thread Sean. I have fished a number of waters were rowing baits out is the norm…huge continental reservoirs for example. I thought long and hard about this and I decided I would not do it.

My own (self imposed) rule is that I am happy to bait up with a boat but my hookbait must be cast. I would also have no problem fishing from a boat but again I would cast from it.

I think its easy for people to assume on waters were everyone isboating it out then you have to as well to stand any chance to catch. This is just not the case and in fact I would go so far as to say that rowing a bait out 300 meters can often be a disadvantage. Bite indication is rubbish, you have more line out there to snag and snap on something and you wont be fishing to the biggest feature on the water which is the margin.

As for bait boats, on waters were they are heavily used the fish may wise up to the idea of these perfect piles of bait out there and perhaps the guy coming in with a spod or whatever that’s spreads it out a bit more could fool them. I agree that there will come a time when “fair angling” will need to be defined however in the case of bait boats so many people already use them that I think its too late and the horse has already bolted.

GreyFox · Oct 28, 2008

I think the rules will be written by the pounds spent!

The fishery in question won't care whether the fish was caught by use of a baiboat, all it will care about (and, unfortunately so will many anglers) is that the fishery holds a big carp. Thus more revenue for the owners due to the publicity.

My defence of baitboats comes from a personal experience in France. I fished a water that was particularly shallow, the temperature knocking on a hundred in old money and the previous months drought had lowered water levels throughout the area. The only fish caught the whole week were taken from various points round a central island, and all came from underneath overhanging bramble bushes. No way would anyone have been able to cast to those fish even though it was not a great distance - the bushes overhung the water by about 4 to 5 feet. The fish were holed up there and a baiboat meant that my mate and I caught 32 fish in the week for a total weight over 600 lbs. My baitboat has not been used for the last two years, there has been no need - but I religiously take it with me (on expensive trips) because it can save the day (or week rather!).

Like lots of modern tackle, it is 'horses for courses'.

Baitboats are not the answer to everything, they are merely designed to do a job, like electronic alarms, beta lights, braids, surface missile floats, rig tubing et al.

/forum/smilies/smile_smiley.gif

Philip · Oct 28, 2008

I take your point Grey fox but I will not use one even if it costs me fish as I see casting a bait (even if it is lowering it from the rod top) as being a nessecary skill in angling.

Then we have the question of merit. I feel that fish I might catch without a boat are more meritable than those I could have caught with one but again that’s just my personal opinion.

I guess each angler will make up their own minds as to what is fair and what is not. There will always bepeople who don’t give a stuff and are simply interested in the water holding a big fish and fishing for it with whatever means they can. I guess if that’s what people enjoy then so be it…after all many are just after a holiday and some comfortable fishing….nothing wrong with that - but its not for me.

Nice fish, but is it angling?

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