Old Rods...

Because I started fishing late in life, I did not get any experience with what are today referred to as 'older rods'. When I mentioned this a while ago I was kindly given a few older rods to try and completely by coincidence, a friend of the family asked me if I was interested in her late husbands fishing gear.

I have now had about 18 months to try these rods out. The more modern 'old rods' are carbon and I like using them. One is a Silstar 13ft Match rod and the other is a rather snazzy looking Milo Deep Blue 12ft Match rod. Both of these have been great fun to use.

I am no looking at an old fibreglass rod I was given, that looks as if it has never been used. It is 12ft long and is a Winfield (Woolworths) 'Stillwater Leger' (sic) rod. The only other thing it says on the label is that it was made in Japan. It is much lighter than I expected and the bottom section and short butt are as stiff as a broomstick. The tip is much stiffer than anything else I have and seems to bend mainly in the top third. The rings are just wire, although look nicely made and are very neatly whipped on to the blank. I have an old Mitchell reel of about the same vintage. I am planning on taking it out with me tomorrow to give it a try.

Has anyone had any experience with this rod? I assume it was a cheap rod aimed at the kids of the day so I am not expecting too much from with it, but any feedback would be interesting.

Ralph.

There was a period in time when the Woolies fishing kit was half decent branded gear rebadged. There were also periods when it was absolute rubbish.

fishplate42 said:

'Stillwater Leger' (sic) rod.

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There's no sic about it. Ledger is a book you record figures in. Everyone assumes that ledger is the right way to spell the angling term as it was a pre-existing word, but leger is, at least, just as correct. When I was a nipper, I remember seeing it about 50/50 in angling literary and industry. Now "ledger" is almost universal, but that doesn't mean it's entirely correct.

I owned a Winfield Stillwater Leger rod for over 20 years (bought in 1977) and caught some good fish with it. It had a test curve of about 1lb, so suited lines 3-6lb bs.

Yours must be a later or different version to mine, though, which was 10' in three sections including a detachable handle. Dark green blank.

Leger also means light in French and could be describing the lightness of the rod. N'est pas...?

I've read in more than one old angling book that the word leger comes from Old French meaning "to lie upon". Makes sense!

peter crabtree said:

Leger also means light in French and could be describing the lightness of the rod. N'est pas...?

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Oui sans doute!

sam vimes said:

There's no sic about it. Ledger is a book you record figures in. Everyone assumes that ledger is the right way to spell the angling term as it was a pre-existing word, but leger is, at least, just as correct. When I was a nipper, I remember seeing it about 50/50 in angling literary and industry. Now "ledger" is almost universal, but that doesn't mean it's entirely correct.

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The English language is interesting and it develops as time goes on. Both spellings seem to be in common usage these days, however 'ledger' is indeed a book for recording accounts. It is also a flat gravestone, a flat scaffold board, parallel to the face of the building and doted line in print to guide the pen or eye. The Oxford Dictionary describes Ledger-tackle as "A kind of fishing tackle in which a lead weight keeps the bait on the bottom"

'Leger' is defined as a short line added to music for notes above and below the staff [variation of Ledger] No other uses are listed.

When I am in doubt regarding this sort of thing I always look for early usage of the word and in The Compleat Angler by Izaak Walton, originally published in 1653, the word is spelt with the 'd'. Mind you, I may have shot myself in the foot using that as an example as I don't spell 'Compleat' like that. It is also spelt with a 'd' in the Mr. Crabtree Goes Fishing tales.

Words are fastening. In publishing, when there are seemingly two 'accepted' ways to spell a word it is 'house rules' that will be applied, usually after consulting with Hart's Rules, the industry bible for such things.

In this 'House' the fishing term is spelt with a 'd'.

I love all this type of discussion. All specialist interests tend to have words that may not be catalogued as correct but through common usage are universally understood.

Dare I mention 'leam' another word that the angling fraternity have invented.

I will now go and sit in the corner with my tin hat on...

Ralph.

Most of the Woolworth's fishing kit was rebranded Diawa stuff with a bit of Shimano mixed in. I still have 2 x 10ft creamy coloured match rods from Winfield. These were also Daiwa rods. I used them for rock fishing in the 70's long before LRF hit the scene and of course river angling.

Ralph,
I've little doubt that leger and ledger are interchangeable with regards to the fishing method. There's also little doubt that spellcheckers have rendered the use of leger as almost obsolete. I have equally little doubt that suggesting that just one as an incorrect spelling is wrong, at least in an angling context.

fishplate42 said:

Dare I mention 'leam' another word that the angling fraternity have invented.

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There are a few out there, but many don't come to mind easily, even when you try to remember them.
I suspect "shalla" is going to be one that joins the lexicon, if it hasn't already. It might be on a sticky wicket though as it's just a corruption of shallow.
"Bolo" might be in with a chance. Still a corruption, but at least a corruption of a word that isn't English, as such.

---------- Post added at 15:21 ---------- Previous post was at 15:01 ----------

iain t said:

Most of the Woolworth's fishing kit was rebranded Diawa stuff with a bit of Shimano mixed in.

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My recollections are more of the English brands that hailed from the West Midlands. Shakespeare and Edgar Sealey being two that stick in my mind.

I made up a new word last week, hospointment instead of hospital appointment. Just saying...

Just like old rods, old anglers are also better!

Thanks for all the relies, especially regarding the rod. I had planned to give it a try tomorrow, but have you seen the weather forecast for down here in the south tomorrow? I really don't fancy frying in the sun all day. I will leave that until later in the week. Instead I will go and do a bit of whip fishing in my local river and try out my new hat!

It should be cooler down in the shade of the trees.



Ralph.

Re leger vs ledger, how's this for a coincidence? I've recently started reading Fred Buller's last (and posthumously published) book, "Domesday and beyond: memoirs of an angling historian".

And just now, on p76, have come across the following:

"Now the spelling of leger rather than ledger, particularly in angling magazines, is so obstinately adhered to by some publishers as to become a lost cause for those who would seek to redress the error."

Buller was convinced that "ledger" was the correct form, quoting from correspondence in the Angling magazine for July/Sept 1946 from a Rev. George Metcalfe, who sources the origin of the word to old high German "leggen". This, he says, was pronounced "so that the g is soft as in giraffe, and not hard as in grayling, hence ledger."

I can't see how that represents conclusive evidence, though? And Fred Buller himself, despite his reputation for accuracy, wasn't perfect. In an earlier piece about the sturgeon, he quotes "Charles ****ens in A Dictionary of the Thames (1880)". A pedant (like myself!?) would insist on a "Jr" being added to that author's name - ****ens the father having died in 1870 and the book referred to having been written by the son who carried his first name...

The English language is constantly evolving. Common usage tends to ignore the rules, such as they are. In our hobby everybody knows what is meant, so what does it matter? Probably nothing but it just interests me how determine some people are to change things. As far as ledger/Leger is concerned, just look the two words up in an English dictionary - that thick dusty book left on the shelf...

To be honest, as far as I am concerned, consistency is more important than which word is used... Even if some people insist on using the wrong spelling mg:

Ralph.

.................but what does one do with 'old' rods (and I mean those going back to the
60's) that are of no use to man nor beast and take up space in the loft. I'm currently clearing out my loft and I'm thinking the only good place for them is a charity shop, or at worse into the skip!

Nobody with any sense would want them, let alone use them, so it looks like the Marlow charity shop, with gift aid thrown in....


ps My wife suggested bean poles, but I had a longish, quiet spell.. 'old rods'

Apologies to the OP if I've drifted off thread, but the title reminded me .....

Tee-Cee said:

Nobody with any sense would want them, let alone use them, so it looks like the Marlow charity shop, with gift aid thrown in....

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Have a look at the "sold listings" on the Vintage Fishing Equipment section of eBay and you might be surprised at the number of people without any sense!

Early Winfield tackle scores on two counts: nostalgia for "Good Old Woollies" and the quality - I posted this elsewhere, a few years back:

Put: "woolworths winfield fishing tackle" into a search engine and you'll find loads of nostalgic threads, some very evocative adverts, and some hard-nosed accounts of the P.R. manoeuvres that Woolies were involved in.

A chap called Mike Pritchard was, iirc, involved in getting them to aim high and price low, in the early days, at least; this resulted in some fine (for the day) blanks hitting the market (rather later, tricked out in fairly rubbish fittings -those in the know gave them a quick upgrade...) but the stuff before and after his influence was, er, not terribly good. This is why some people rave about Winfield kit, and others blush that they ever went in the shop and came out with alleged "fishing tackle".

I think Mr. Pritchard was in the magic circle that revolved around "Angling" magazine and Peek's tackle shop, so his input was considerable, and high quality; if anyone more intimately associated with him, or the trade, knows more, I for one would love to hear.

Health warning: my Winfield "Roach Fisher"* (a 21st century charity-shop find) gave me a trivial-but-annoying glass-fibre micro-splinter after handling the spigot, so if you find one, give the unvarnished bits a rub with a cloth (which you then bin!!!) and maybe a rub with a candle, to hold any loose bits down.
That probably goes for any entry-level glass rod that seems unused.

*Something else to use on a "seventies day", alongside my Shakey "Match International" combo!

And yes, if it had two centres, it would be a magic ellipse...

Sam Vines, My late uncle was the oversea buyer for Woolworths in the 60, 70 and 80s. Yes, 30 years with the same company, that was when companies treated their staff with respect and jobs were for life. Anyway, he spent most of his time in China and Japan making deals with the makers of cheap plastic toys. He made the deal with Daiwa and Shimano to import fishing goods to the UK for Winfield as at the time no one knew of these companies. At the time these 2 manufactures hand made their rods on a production line.( maybe that's why you always see them in good condition at boot sales) Some of the reels were rebranded, Daiwa and Shakespeare. Shakespeare supplied most of the end tackle. The line came from Germany, so probably Perlon. Everything was packaged under the Winfield brand. This was all modern stuff at the time.
So you have my uncle to blame for first introducing Daiwa and Shimano to the UK.

I'm so pleased that this ledger/leger conflict has cropped up again, I remember starting it as a thread some time ago.

For me it will always be leger, I cannot get my head around a large accounts book (pre-digital era!) having a swivel attached to it and lobbed out as a weight to hold bottom

I've always envisaged some mad Monty Python type sketch where a bloke walks into a tackle shop and asks what ledgers they have, only to be met with the reply...

"Well Sir, we have the purchase and the invoice..." mg:

fishplate42 said:

The English language is constantly evolving.

Ralph.

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In'it :w