What is the definition of river?

no-one in particular

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I was going to say this on the 100 rivers thread but thought it better as a new subject.
I am often confused (nothing new). Are drains and sewers rivers?. The Wallers and Pevensey "Havens"-are they rivers? I believe Haven is an old Saxon word for river. But they don't look like rivers, more like drains. Confusing sometimes, then there are streams, brooks and probably a few more I cannot think of.
Whats the definition of a river?
 

john step

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At a guess I would say anything that flows naturally however small.
This would discount man made drains and canals that only flow with artificial pumping.
The problem with definition might be on sections of canal such as the Grand Union where the Gade flows in and out creating a natural type flow.

However with un natural metal shored up banks it would be difficult to call it a river.
 

nottskev

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Anywhere you can't fish in the close season? :rolleyes:
 

theartist

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I was going to say this on the 100 rivers thread but thought it better as a new subject.
I am often confused (nothing new). Are drains and sewers rivers?. The Wallers and Pevensey "Havens"-are they rivers? I believe Haven is an old Saxon word for river. But they don't look like rivers, more like drains. Confusing sometimes, then there are streams, brooks and probably a few more I cannot think of.
Whats the definition of a river?

I'd count them as rivers as a drain is often a river that's been tamed by man. If you look at the os mapping for both you can trace them upstream, Wallers Haven for example starts where the Ash Bourne and Nunningham stream join each other. After that they are shaped by man to allow the flood plain to be farmed, it would be a shame to not refer to drains and dykes as rivers if they have their own source.
 

no-one in particular

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Still a bit confusing though, what is a large amount of water, when is it small enough to be called a brook or stream. Then there are "Bournes" what are they?
In my own mind its any water that flows and eventually runs into the sea but there seems to be no definite measure of when its this or that.

Are drains, sewers and dykes not considered rivers in the close season and I have never established when an estuary is fresh water or sea. Its a messy old coconut.
 

no-one in particular

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I'd count them as rivers as a drain is often a river that's been tamed by man. If you look at the os mapping for both you can trace them upstream, Wallers Haven for example starts where the Ash Bourne and Nunningham stream join each other. After that they are shaped by man to allow the flood plain to be farmed, it would be a shame to not refer to drains and dykes as rivers if they have their own source.

I did walk at the out-flow of the Pevensey Haven last summer, disappears down a concrete culvert, under some Government land of which I got turfed off for being too nosy (they got well stroppy! I think they thought I was a terrorist) and down a pipe which runs into the sea.
 
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theartist

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I did walk at the out-flow of the Pevensey Haven last summer, disappears down a concrete culvert, under some Government land of which I got turfed off for being too nosy (they got well stroppy!) and down a pipe which runs into the sea.

Yeah this is typical of many a coastal river that ends up by being pumped into the sea over the sea defences, it's not a glorious way for a river to end it's journey although it's the reason why the water is fresh and not saline.
 

theartist

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Are drains, sewers and dykes not considered rivers in the close season and I have never established when an estuary is fresh water or sea. Its a messy old coconut.

They are considered rivers and do have a close season if they are running water, there are exceptions elsewhere but Pevensey and Wallers have the usual close season

The close season on estuaries is simple, target coarse fish there's a close season, target sea fish then you can fish all year round (research bass, sea trout and salmon laws though). Find yourself catching coarse fish out of season then use common sense and move down river and/or change baits
 
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sam vimes

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Still a bit confusing though, what is a large amount of water, when is it small enough to be called a brook or stream. Then there are "Bournes" what are they?
In my own mind its any water that flows and eventually runs into the sea but there seems to be no definite measure of when its this or that.

Are drains, sewers and dykes not considered rivers in the close season and I have never established when an estuary is fresh water or sea. Its a messy old coconut.

That's rather the point made in various definitions, there is no particular size standard. As far as the names go, everything depends on location. There are a multitude of variations for a small watercourse depending on where in the world you are. Becks, brooks, burns, creeks, gills/ghylls, rills, etc etc. They aren't necessarily smaller than the watercourses deemed to be a river. The headwaters of many of my local main rivers are no bigger than a host of other small becks that join together to swell what will eventually become a decent sized river. There's little reason why one is designated as a river and the others not.

Locally, we have a few big becks (Cod Beck, Bedale Beck) that are as big, or bigger, than some of the named rivers (River Whiske). We also have the curious case of the River Ure which, for little obvious reason, changes into the (Yorkshire Ouse). I've seen suggestions that it's little more than a different dialect of the same word, but why and where the change applies is a bit of a mystery.

As far as the English/Welsh angling laws are concerned, as far as I'm aware, they simply apply the same rules to all waters that aren't truly enclosed, even if it's by sluices or locks. That's going to mean that there will be anomalies. Some canals are considered as self contained, others aren't. I'd guess that any drain, dyke or sewer that discharges water into the sea, or another watercourse that does, is likely to be treated as not being self contained. That doesn't make them rivers though.
 
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no-one in particular

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They are considered rivers and do have a close season if they are running water, there are exceptions elsewhere but Pevensey and Wallers have the usual close season

The close season on estuaries is simple, target coarse fish there's a close season, target sea fish then you can fish all year round (research bass, sea trout and salmon laws though). Find yourself catching coarse fish out of season then use common sense and move down river and/or change baits

The trouble is Art, I could be spinning for Bass or Perch, maggot legerng for flounders or roach, bread and float for mullet or chub.
It would be a lot easier if the EA stuck a pole up stating this is coarse one side requiring a license and close season is in operation and this is sea the other side and you don't need a licence and no close season is observed. It would be helpful to some of us and I imagine to the law as well. Everyone would know where they are. There are a lot of tidal stretches where an average salinity level could be measured to determine where they should go.
 

theartist

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The trouble is Art, I could be spinning for Bass or Perch, maggot legerng for flounders or roach, bread and float for mullet or chub.
It would be a lot easier if the EA stuck a pole up stating this is coarse one side requiring a license and close season is in operation and this is sea the other side and you don't need a licence and no close season is observed. It would be helpful to some of us and I imagine to the law as well. Everyone would know where they are. There are a lot of tidal stretches where an average salinity level could be measured to determine where they should go.

Not sure about an average salinity level as that would vary a lot each day depending on rainfall and size of tides, as would having a physical boundary marker, i'm just going on what I have in writing from the port and fisheries authorities down your way, it states basically that it's all down to what you are fishing for.
 

Mark Wintle

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A very long time ago I remember the definition of a river included being 15ft or more wide, less than that and it was a stream. That said some locally named 'rivers' are less than 15ft in width. Locally (Dorset/Wilts/Hants) bournes tend to be seasonal streams - the local winterbourne to me only started flowing again in December having been dry for 6 months.

Locally in one of the harbours we can legally fish with bread for mullet during the coarse fish close season not maggots or casters but have to move seawards if the dace or roach turn up. On that stretch I've caught dace in the autumn on a big up tide that has shifted the dace with the incoming saltwater and I've ended up catching checker bass.
 

flightliner

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On the strength of artists one hundred rivers thread I started to count mine but stopped short at drains, becks, canals, fleets , goyts, meanders even aqueducts of which I fish two on the odd occasion . Some are called rivers on maps but are canals or cuttings so it's a very confusing picture to work out .
 
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binka

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Some are called rivers on maps but are canals or cuttings so it's a very confusing picture to work out .

And then you have riverised sections of canals, such as the T&M at Wychnor.

For all intents and purposes that is a river from Alrewas lock down to the weir but forms a section of the canal link and I've often seen anglers on there, trotting during the closed season :confused:
 

no-one in particular

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Not sure about an average salinity level as that would vary a lot each day depending on rainfall and size of tides, as would having a physical boundary marker, i'm just going on what I have in writing from the port and fisheries authorities down your way, it states basically that it's all down to what you are fishing for.

That would be the point of an average salinity level, and decide which point is sea and which is freshwater and have a permanent marker at that point;just for legal purposes this would make everything so much easier. I didn't know port authorities decided this and I bet its vague from one P/A to another. Take Mark W's post, must be difficult to work it all out especially for new anglers. I am somewhat experienced but I am never sure whether I am legal or not.
I reckon they aught to clarify this situation in a permanent way; its all too vague as it stands, so many different interpretations, cannot be right when the law of the land is involved.

I wonder if this affects vessels as well, when is a vessel at sea or not.
 
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