More beaver anyone?

A flurry of emails over the last 4 weeks, sorry there is a lot of it and I am none the wiser but it might interest one or two of you:-.

To:enquiries@environment-agency.gov.uk
12 May at 09:56
Can you tell me what happens if beavers move onto farm land where carefully controlled drainage systems are in place if beavers move in, once they start building dams and cutting down trees this will be a serious problem. Will they be allowed to be removed? If a carefully run fishery has beavers move in, they will not want dams and trees being cut down, will they be able to remove them as well? The same for anyone with a carefully landscape large garden with a lake and/or stream. Is there any legislation planned for this? What will they be able to do legally? Generally I am worried about these multiplying in the wild, they are a large destructive creature and they are going to cause a lot of problems for a lot of people, what will they be able to do legally?
Thank You-look forward to your reply.

<melliott@devonwildlifetrust.org>
14 May at 15:08
Hi Mark
Thanks for your message about the beavers, and the ability to manage them in the future.
The decisions about their management will be made by Defra at the end of the Trial, although we’re currently suggesting mechanisms that would allow this to occur. As part of this we’re gathering together the experiences of other countries around the world where beavers and people live alongside each other – there are many techniques that can be employed to manage conflicts where they occur. I’m sure that the interests of landowners and fisheries owners will be considered in detail, but many areas of conflict can be addressed simply through the provision of accurate information. For example a great many people still believe that beavers eat fish, and so simply dispelling myths like these helps to allow people to accept them back into the landscape that we eradicated them from.

As you’re probably aware, beavers are a native part of British ecosystems, and so a great many species are dependent on the habitats that they create. The trees that they feed on such as willow and poplar coppice in response to being cut by the beavers, and so all that happens is the canopy structure changes and may even become more suitable for things like nesting birds, caterpillars etc. The impacts on biodiversity have been shown to be positive in all manner of ways, which is why the Wildlife Trusts are so keen to bring them back.
If you want a bit more information on the work that we’re doing, have a look on our the two beaver project pages on our website
Best wishes


Thank you for your reply, I am still worried by the long term affect though. However you word it you are in fact introducing a new non native species into the country. This will have an affect on all the flora and fauna that has evolved without beavers for 500 years.
I imagine these will be heavily protected and many restrictions will be in place around them. You did not really answer my questions for example will anglers only be able to fish within a limited range of where these beavers set up home or will they be able to remove them. Fishery's and farms and private land owners will not want them, its not everyone's desire to see their trees cut down or their water courses altered and I have read they will fell Oak Trees as well. And if they are allowed to deal with them which is unlikely, at what cost to them and will they be compensated for that?
Your website does not tell us anything about this, just paints the rosy side of the picture and I think many members of the general public need to know the full story before these are released into the wild. Personally I think 10,20 or 30 years down the line they will be a pest once they spread and it looks like to me no one is considering this.
Mark..


On Monday, 14 May 2018, 15:08:15 GMT+1, Mark Elliott <melliott@devonwildlifetrust.org> wrote:


Hi Mark
<enquiries@environment-agency.gov.uk>

Hi Mark,

Natural England are the organisation that assess and licence any applications for re-introduction either to an enclosure or for a wild release.

Department for Environment food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) write polices to go along with the licences.

I have passed your enquiry to the Natural England Customer Service desk who will respond to you directly.

Kind Regards

Colleen Buckley
Customer Service Adviser, Email Management Unit, NCCC
Contact Centre Services - Part of Operations, Regulation & Customer
<Michaela.Barwell@naturalengland.org.uk>
Cc:Enquiries (NE)
31 May at 07:07
Dear Mark

Thank you for your enquiry. I am responding in relation to the River Otter Trial which you refer to in the subject of your email as Natural England granted the licence for the trial.

The project is being delivered by the Devon Wildlife Trust and they have a key role to play in being available to discuss any issues or concerns that anyone has as a result of the presence of beavers and any activity damaging or otherwise that they are involved with. Under the terms of our license the Wildlife Trust have a clear commitment to respond to enquiries in relation to the project including working with farmers and land owner to manage unwanted damage to trees and damming, they can be contacted on 01392 279244.

Consideration is currently being given to proposals for future options for the beavers once the trial is concluded in 2020, however no decisions have yet been reached.

Kind Regards
Michaela

Michaela Barwell
Operations Manager – Devon
Devon, Cornwall and Isles of Scilly Team
Natural England
Sterling House, Dix’s Field
Exeter
EX1 1QA

Thank you for your reply. I understand the present terms of the license issued to the Devon Trust while this trial is taking place however, my concerns are with legislation when these animals are released into the wild as explained in my email. What will landowners, fisheries, private land owners be able to do when these animals are unwanted. Will they be so heavily protected like otters for instance that they will be unable to do anything. Will an angling fishery be banned from fishing within 50/100/200 yards from them for example. Will financial compensation be available for loss of business and trees or re landscaping land.
I am asking because the Devon Trust does not address these issues on their website and the public will need to know before the release of these animals.
My guess is no legislation has been thought of or even considered by the Devon Trust or at Government level, is this case?
Thank You
Mark

To:defra.helpline@defra.gsi.gov.uk,
31 May at 08:38
Dear Sir or Madam,
My question is when beavers are released into the wild, will angling clubs be able to remove them if they set up on their waterways. Or will anglers be banned from fishing within a distance of them and if so what will that distance be? Will compensation be available to them for loss of angling and/or trees when these are felled by beavers on their club waters if it is the case.

Thank You
Mark

And that was it. no reply from DEFRA or further replies anyone else, guess they don't like me much.

thing is though your thinking of what happens in the real world....they don't

I am all for biodiversity and love all forms of wildlife! We haven't had beavers for over 500 years and the UK has moved on with vast population growth, buiding,, transport etc! If they could be confined to designated areas then that is one thing but if they have total freedom like otters, squirrels, mink, signal Crayfish etc then that's another matter!

All of these creatures and many more live in Sweden where my putative son in law comes from and they do live harmoniously with humans! However Sweden has a landmass twice to three times the UK and a total population less than that in London alone!

The density of humans in the UK is too great in my opinion for many creatures, some dangerous, to coexist with us!

I tend to share Mike's views regarding the differecnes in both total populationo and density between the UK and places like Sweden.

In Norway they have been managing the Beaver popularion for over 150 years and seem to have a very good blance between conservation and a legal cull.


There are also other "non-lethal" methods of control available to all farmers and land users . . . . .


I'm not completely sure if the UK would ever adopt similar measures as we seem to be more interested in the "fluffy and cuddly" aspects first and foremost.

I think there is only one agenda, to release them in the wild and it will happen, I am as sure of that as anything. I also think they will spread very quickly, no competition for food and plenty of nice water and trees around. Where I fished yesterday would be perfect as I am sure many other places will be.
Which begs the question - what will fishery owners be able to do if anglers are not allowed to fish within 500 yards of them. Now that may not be the case but I suspect it will be for quite a few years initially and places like where I fished yesterday would close down and would it be just nice to know the score before they are released because once the horse has bolted...
Anyway, not my problem now, I had a go and I knew I wouldn't get an answer before I started, just wanted these people to know we are not all dumb clucks believing all their rose tinted one sided view.

Reading between the lines there Mark (always a little dangerous I know) but you can see that there is a huge chance of repeating the same mistakes that were made when introducing the Otter . . . .


I would strongly urge you to pass all these details onto the Angling Trust in the hope that angling might just get a voice to be heard on this topic.

The beavers are someone's pet project and as such they are blinkered to the wider issues. I can see us finding beavers on our Dorset rivers before too long. On the upper Stour the farmers won't muck about, one dam that threatens their fields and in with the Hymack and shotgun.

Peter Jacobs said:

Reading between the lines there Mark (always a little dangerous I know) but you can see that there is a huge chance of repeating the same mistakes that were made when introducing the Otter . . . .


I would strongly urge you to pass all these details onto the Angling Trust in the hope that angling might just get a voice to be heard on this topic.

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I am not a member Peter but any member wants to do that, they are welcome, all the details are in the thread.

Mark Wintle said:

The beavers are someone's pet project

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Its not any more, Devon Wildlife Trust, Nature for England, DEFRA, The Enviromnet Agency. They are all batting for it.

Mark Wintle said:

The beavers are someone's pet project and as such they are blinkered to the wider issues. I can see us finding beavers on our Dorset rivers before too long. On the upper Stour the farmers won't muck about, one dam that threatens their fields and in with the Hymack and shotgun.

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I agree, also what if they happen to venture onto a good salmon stretch of a river, or onto a well maintained commercial with streams
and trees on it, Here is a question for you all. Clubs are crying out for protection from cormorants decimating their waters..
How many cormorants do you see on a commercial fishery, ?? they may arrive on them, But...….. ? what happens next.. Bang.

The report on the Scottish Beaver Trial (no "guilty" jokes) is out, and the costs and benefits of beavers set out.

http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/publications/research/Beavers in Scotland - Final - 10 June 2015.pdf

The risks of diarrhoea due to giardiasis (known as "beaver fever" in America) are explained. It didn't cover the risks of the fevered imagination.

I do not fish commercials that often but come to think of it I have never seen a cormorant!

Before going away I fished my local Mere for a couple of hours and blanked on une float! It's a beautiful place but hard to fish!

View attachment 4931

I did see several cormorants!

Beaver are just "the next big thing" for the fake environmentalists.

nottskev said:

The report on the Scottish Beaver Trial (no "guilty" jokes) is out, and the costs and benefits of beavers set out.

http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/publications/research/Beavers in Scotland - Final - 10 June 2015.pdf

The risks of diarrhoea due to giardiasis (known as "beaver fever" in America) are explained. It didn't cover the risks of the fevered imagination.

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I have read the report on "legal issues and the management of their impact" and "public health management" which will do more than give you the shits plus the costs/management and prevention/removal of beavers occupying drains, fisheries, culverts, agricultural land etc and their legal protection. Plus concerns about overlapping on important rivers like the Tay, whats going to happen on our important rivers!
And boy oh boy are we heading for a load of trouble, seriously; really seriously- I have only imagined a FRACTION of it, its going to be an awful lot of problems and for what. I have to ask for what and why.

"I started this post by copying relevant pieces from the report on word to paste in this post but there was so much of it I gave up", it is extremely worrying and Peter is right, the angling trust should be seriously looking at this and not just the angling trust. This is nothing to do with you Nottskev by the way, we clash occasionally but its bigger than both of us-this needs some serious appraisal for its future impact on angling and NOW.
Not me, it is more than my limitations.


This Scottish report is probably going to be the the basis of an English one so the angling trust and fish legal could start there if they have not done so already.

Just a last thought on this because it has occurred to me. Six diseases/parasites are listed in the report, some that cross over to other animals and several that transfer to Beavers. Given this reason for re introduction is they were once native does it occur to anyone that after 500 years other animals may have lost any built up immunity to these diseases and parasites and how virulent they might become and how much mutation might occur given their new ideal situation with low resistant hosts.
They have been quarantined so they don't carry the ones that exist in the European stock where they come from except one of them, fair enough but; any guarantees that they wont eventually find there way over here. They state low or very low risk in all the examples but not one "no risk " because they just don't know.
They say on release it will be carefully monitored, how are they going to monitor them all once they spread, the cost will escalate to do that and I bet it will eventual get passed by.
We should be more sophisticated and educated now than just its all right because they were once native 500 years ago; I can never get that.
Taking it all into account, the costs of monitoring, the hiring of diggers and labor to get rid of them when you don't want them, the cost of electric fencing to prevent them, disease control, damage of property and land, disruption of established spawning areas-its just going to be an expanding nightmare in my opinion and for what! The bio diversity, water quality and flood management is piffling and they readily admit once beavers become ubiquitous tourism revenue will disappear. It just doesn't stack up.

I have had a reply from DEFRA, thought I might not have given them long enough. They say there is no existing legislation banning anglers from fishing in the presence of beavers, of course it has not been considered yet. However, once they have been released or prior to their release I bet it will be considered at some point or at least some kind of restrictions, I know I am only second guessing possible outcomes or my fevered imagination if you like but a thing that needs to be monitored.

Now off to have Condor moment, good luck.

As far as I can see beavers can only improve the environment on the whole. They actually create habitat for mammals, birds, repltiles , fish, etc.
They would most likely help stop flooding as they'd slow the path of water on smaller streams.

Many typicaly negative responses from anglers...as usual.

Have a look where we are up to with mammals in the UK

Fifth of Britain’s wild mammals ‘at high risk of extinction’ | Environment | The Guardian

99 problems and a beaver ain't one.....that can't be managed and accommodated.

nottskev said:

Have a look where we are up to with mammals in the UK

Fifth of Britain’s wild mammals ‘at high risk of extinction’ | Environment | The Guardian

99 problems and a beaver ain't one.....that can't be managed and accommodated.

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We are good at accommodating and managing new species - mink, otter, cormorant, knot-weed, American crayfish, grey squirrel, killer shrimp, Chinese crab...
It will be fine for a while, it will be 10/20/30 years down the line, everyone would have got over the novelty and then there is just another unwanted pest.

They do create habitat and flood defense but they also destroy habitat and cause flooding, weighing up the total benefits against the problems and costs of managing and accommodating them, I don't see any gain in the long term. And that's gleaned from reading the report which is a fair one, not my imagination , it does deal with the problems/costs as well as the benefits.