Who owns a river?

Weirdoh · Apr 30, 2019

Hypothetical question.

Who owns the river?

Act1 scene 1

"You cannot fish here mate, your tresspassing and poaching, I can have the police here in 5mins" he said.

Is the owner the sole creator and maintainer of its coarse?

"Look, you have no licence, you havent produced a ticket for this stretch so Im asking you to leave".

Ok, fine..

I left. I was not on the land of a named man or his family, I did not kill or take and eat a fish either, I was unarmed and made no threat to use force. I was by myself.
Nothing could be established by witness testimony of 2 or more as it was his word against mine.

Who was it I caused offense to?
The gentleman (who never claimed owned where I was sat), The fishing club? I was not a member rightly so but no indication of a club, no signage and no proof I had seen any! The EU supreme court? The EU just want your time and effort to create a beast...they are not concerned with wetting a line unless at sea! The local authority? Any land the local authority has bought with money from people living in that borough/area of influence is that peoples to use right? Maybe the Government....they immunized the force in once taking of the area I sat at previously then, at some point in the past it was just a river, did I offend the Queen? Who is claiming direct ownership

Who actually owns a river? Who claims they can offer its use for a return? How did they acquire it? Was it lawful?

I would genuinely like to know.

Peter Jacobs · Apr 30, 2019

The "owner" is the person or persons who posess the "Riparian rights" to the river.

This typically (but not always) being the owner of the land where the river runs through.

Riparian Rights have their origin in English Common Law and the right extends into the centre of the river (especially if both banks are owned by different people)

Riparian rights include such things as the right to access for swimming, boating and fishing and also to allow for the construction of piers or wharfs as well.

As well as "rights" a Riparian owner also has "responsibilities" such as: to pass on the flow of water without obstruction; maintain the river bed and banks; and to be responsible for protetin the land from flooding.

Those rights and duties being overseen by the Environmental Agency

In answer to your particular questions:

1, The riparian owner owns that part of the river that flows though his purchased land

2. Again, the riparian owner has the right to offer the fishing rights for sale or rent

3. The Riparian Rights are usually obtained by the legal purchase of the and that ajoins the river, so that also answers the legality" question.

Hope this help . . .

PS: no one actually owns the fish in the river as they are free to roam, whereas fish in a pond or lake are owned by the owner of the venue

rayner · Apr 30, 2019

Bang on Peter, it stops folk doing what they want on private land without permission.
Finding the riparian owner to ask permission rather than just taking what you want would be a better way to go. Not everyone is an ogre. The offer of a bottle of Malt would help.

Jeff Woodhouse · Apr 30, 2019

The owner of the land through which a watercourse runs is normally the owner of the river bed to half way (unless he/she also owns the opposite bank as well) across and all the amenity rights, fishing and boating etc, that go with it. He does not own the actual water nor the fish (as has also been said), they are ferae naturae, wild animals.

The river bed can be sold separately as can the fishing rights, usually with a right to access the land. So you could end up with three owners or more if boating was separated again. However, if the owner of the fishing rights grants a club or individual the right to fish and there is no exclusion clause stating that ALL fish must be returned alive, then whoever has the right and catches a fish, it belongs to him.

As well as the river bed, the owner of that also owns the space above the bed including that which the water occupies. So anyone wishing to paddle through with a canoe must, unless it is defined as a navigable river, gain agreement with the owner to paddle through. He also owns the ground beneath the bed, barring mineral rights etc., to the Earth's core. (This came from a barrister we had one here.)

spenbeck · Apr 30, 2019

Also remember that the land owner does not always have the fishing rights to the river on his land.

The land may have been originally sold to the land owner and the trespass and fishing rights to an angling club.

The land owner then can control trespassing, unless the accused is a member of the said club.

It's very complicated.

Basically, if it's on private land and the is no controlling angling club, then you are going to have to move on.

Jeff Woodhouse · Apr 30, 2019

Sorry, lunch was served. To continue...

Even if the land is owned by the local authority, purchase with ratepayers' money, it still does not give you automatic right to fish there. It could be that the LA has granted a licence to fish to a local club and therefore you will have to join that club in order to fish it. Even if the banks is owned by the Environment Agency via the old Conservators, water authorities, NRA, and now EA, it still doesn't give you an automatic right to fish, same as above for LAs.

You really have to make every effort to establish who owns the lands and who holds the rights to fish there. If you have tried, made all the local enquiries and Land Registry searches and still cannot establish any ownership then maybe fish there. If no one challenges you or states they own the fishing rights, via signs or however, then after a period of years you might be able to claim the rights yourself by prescription, but that's a devil of a job to prove.

Weirdoh · Apr 30, 2019

Who created or gives the "riparian" rights?
Also...correct me if I am wrong, can I assume ALL rivers are in fact "owned" by someone or claimed to be if it is indeed hard to prove either way?
I do not wish to tresspass on other peoples land but I do not wish to have crime (theft) immunized by a local authority by paying them off or being licensed to commit a crime either, if I do not have a common law right to use a river because someone owns it fine but then it shouldnt be difficult to prove ownership either way?
I just would like to enjoy freedom to fish without interferences and stay within the law (catch a chub, put it back, go home type activity).

Thanks

Peter Jacobs · Apr 30, 2019

"Who created or gives the "riparian" rights?"

As far as I am understand it, between the late 18th and early 19th century there were many a complex conflict over water rights between domestic, manufacturing and agricultural interests.

From 1750 the courts had established a common law doctrine largely favouring, and attached to, riparian ownership although its legal base goes as far back as Roman and civilian law.

Water law is a convoluted minefield in all honesty, but was mostly formed by the impact of industrialisation and technological innovation coupled to economic ideology.
Much in keeping with many of our older laws, and in a similar vein it is not really an area for so called barrack room lawyers

PS: If I were really concerned about ownership regarding a particular venue then the Land Registry is as good a place as any to begin a search, but in this day and age I'd be rather surprised to find any land adjacent to a river that is not "owned" by someone or other.

Weirdoh · Apr 30, 2019

You made an excellent point....
How difficult it actually is to make sure your not breaking the law while not expending where you need not have to or to the wrong people or thugs in general.

Thanks for the information and I considered the land registry before so long as I can approach the land owner directly and not pay for information I could collect myself freely the land register is the only way to go. Cheers

theartist · Apr 30, 2019

Even common land may not have piscary rights to it and can also be privately owned, riparian rights as has been mentioned before in similar threads is and always will be a bit of a minefield. Even fishing clubs will claim to own stretches of rivers that are in fact public if they fall between their waters. Some areas have 'Town' waters for locals and some areas are free for all, there's quite a few of these that are well kept secrets or get little publicity, but compared to the miles of private bank are hard to find.

theartist · Apr 30, 2019

Weirdoh said:
You made an excellent point.
How difficult it actually is to make sure your not breaking the law while not expending where you need not have to or to the wrong people or thugs in general.

Thanks for the information

If it looks private don't fish it, don't give any money to anyone unless arranged in advance or unless they have I.D. and talk to other anglers/look for signs of fishing. After a while you can tell what could be free fishing and what's private. Also do as much research online as possible

mikench · Apr 30, 2019

It's difficult to prove ownership and to disavow others rights if any! Discretion is however the better part of valour so be circumspect about fishing on land that probably belongs to someone else . Remember though that trespass is not a criminal offence and can only be pursued by a civil action showing damage.

I recommend you join a club!

Weirdoh · Apr 30, 2019

Yes. I generally am the only fisherman where ever I choose to fish these days, I dont carry licenses ID's etc or buy seasonal permissions anymore, I used to be a member of at least 3 local fshing clubs and always had a license and eager to help with working parties, as I found out by personal experience to be all a bit self limiting and unneccessary, always dictated by money and getting onto a stretch (or when successful) had its own interferences, I have only been asked to "reel in" once. I NEVER go out with the intention of tresspassing onto private land (I must make that very clear) but have been very successful in fishing stretches of river by asking for permission of the landowner/business before I bring my rod/reel etc.
I think the environment agency have no teeth where I live even when asked to do something small in nature for me and the local authorities just mock us while they make a killing out of using our money to buy land only to rent it to their "buddies" leaving the tax payer spending twice to use the land paid for "upfront" and only temporarily!!
Sorry for the whinge if it comes accross that way.

steve2 · Apr 30, 2019

Let me see now, if your fishing club only holds the fishing rights to one bank you must therefore be poaching if you fish past the half way line. You can’t legally fish far bank swims.
If I fish from a canoe I can fish the other side of the half way and the club that owns the fishing rights to the half way line can’t stop me.

Peter Jacobs · Apr 30, 2019

Steve, not quite.
Take a look at the definition of Crime code 116/11
Theft of fishing rights.

Weirdoh · Apr 30, 2019

If my bollie is "encroaching" over the invisible middle river line (I'm having a laugh....I'm on my second bottle of wine) how much loot from the theft of rights were actually found on my person?
Is it me or has fishing become unloving, selfish and petty?
"999.....whatservice do you require?"
"Police.....rightaway....hes atleast 1 inch over the line"
"Sorry.....what crime do you wish to report?"
"Just hurry....he might reel in and begin roving..."
"Can you just repeat that"...."can you give me your location please"....
"I cannot let him get away ....unforgivable is that ..he stole my rights and is making off with them".

The bad one · May 1, 2019

Weirdoh said:
Is it me or has fishing become unloving, selfish and petty?

No Angling clubs have started to protect their members rights who can pay not insignificant amounts of money to fish said piece of river. And stop freeloaders "thieving," and it theft their fishing rights.

I'd like to thank personally Mr Miles Gibson for establish without a shadow of a doubt that fishing someone's piece of water with permission is Theft of Fishing Rights under the Theft Act. Cheers For that Miles!

The bad one · May 1, 2019

Oh and in thanking Miles Gibson, I'd also like to thank Lord Justice Parker who in 1964 in the case of Hardy V Wells established what legally is meant by "possession" in the sense of theft. He ruled that the defendant was guilt of taking and carrying away the fish he was catching (theft) because he laid hands up on them, grasped and/or seized them. Even though the defendant's intention was to release them at the end of the day.

In short if a person is fishing without permission he's guilty of theft of fishing rights and might well be guilty of taking and carrying away any fish he touches whilst committing the act of theft of fishing rights.

mikench · May 1, 2019

That was before the 1968 Theft Act Phil. Under the Larceny act 1916 there had to be an asportation ie an act of picking up and taking away! Now the definition is to appropriate property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it ! It could be argued that catch and release does not do that!

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no-one in particular · May 1, 2019

One of the appeals of sea fishing for me is none of this matters, just go to the beach and chuck in for free all year round and no licence.

I have found it an issue in the past with coarse fishing, what and where you can fish, the cost, just the general put off vibe. I found some free fishing, you have to look for it though, it's never advertised, I must have seen thousands of no/private fishing signs in my life, never a free fishing sign not one. I have also got some permissions from a couple of friendly farmers in the past, and that after they came to me to turf me off, just be polite and show your a responsible angler and you might be lucky. But free or free permission fishing is very rare.
It's the way of the world, you have to pay for what you want mostly but licence sales are down every year, I think that's part to do with the way coarse fishing has become so convoluted with laws, rules, permissions, fishing rights etc. But hundreds of years of getting to where we are now won't change.
The thing that grates with me is I have travelled along many miles of rivers, sometimes over many years, all with private or no fishing signs and never seen an an angler on any of it.
One stretch is one S63 might know, above Canterbury all the way to Ashford on the Stour. And there are quite a few around me that are just the same, one club water about 2 miles long, I doubt I have seen more than 20 anglers on it in 20 years.

Who owns a river?

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