Otters,is there anyone out there to protect our fish

alan whittington · May 5, 2009

Having read the article by Chris Turnball in CAT i am deeply concerned as to the future of not just barbel but all fish stocks at this time and can see very little being organised or reasoned from the EA or government or anybody else for that matter,for be assured once the otters have eaten their way through the stocks of quality fish on our waters they will starve and die the same as their prey died before them,is there any news hopefully good out there?

Fin the Fish · May 5, 2009

I'm sorry Alan but Otters belong on our waters, they may be doing some 'damage' now but they will adjust and find the niche in the ecology of Britain's waters that they once occupied. Otters have more right than even we do to be by the waterside, they evolved to survive there where as we visit rivers, lakes, canals etc purely for fun.

I havent read the article so I can't comment on it, but in my opinion and from what I've seen Cormorants are a much bigger threat to our fish stocks along with Zander than Otters ever can or will be.

Bryan Baron 2 · May 5, 2009

I was discussing otters with Neil at the weekend.

He was saying that there have been a family of otters on the Throop or the Royalty since before he was a boy. Yet these waters still have a good head of specimen fish.

We do not own anything in nature. We just are part of it and enjoy what is there.

Every couple of years we have a seal visit the Ribble. Should we kill it. NO its the natuaral way o things.

lynda lythgoe · May 5, 2009

I think that we have to acknowledge that otters are a natural part of theecology on some rivers.

Theissue I have is when otters are being seeded on rivers where the fish stocks are just recovering or just not good enough to sustain them..... especially where there is a fishery close by which will naturally then be exploited by the otters ....

I have read somewhere recently that the EA say the way forward is for such fisheries to be fenced off with otter proof fencing....of course the fishery owner will have to foot the bill. There is no fundingavailable to pay.

Mark Wintle · May 5, 2009

Several comments:

I have read Chris Turnbull's CAT article. It indicates to me that the Wensum is a river in very deep trouble, far beyond the death of some very large barbel. It should be teeming with dace, roach, eels, chub etc. so that it could support the few otters that would occupy such a habitat. If a river ends up with a few very big barbel and little else then it is hardly surprising the otters eat them. I don't even pretend to know the answer to that one.

Re otters on Throop and Royalty. I suspect there were otters in the 1960s but on the Stour they were confined to the upper river by the late 70s and through the 80s, and perhaps even the 90s. The reappearance at Christchurch is in the last decade. On the middle Stour (Blandford to Wimborne) cormorants did the real damage, practically wiping out the dace. Eel trapping took the eels.

The Otter Trust stopped 'seeding' otters because they were all being bred from the same Norfolk pair in captivity. That resulted in inbreeding where several otters were introduced along the same river or adjacent rivers as they were all closely related, and meant genetic defects. I don't know how the RSPCA considers where to release rescued/rehabilitated otter cubs in the wild but it could be to 'new' rivers.

Take a long term view, you may be pleasantly surprised!

Donald Bain · May 5, 2009

I too read the article and found it greatly flawed;

For one thing otters do not by nature kill a fish and leave it uneaten or halfeaten, this is the trademark of the Mink....which outnumbers the otter in our river system by thousands thanks to the "animal Liberation" idiots who released them from their cptivity to cause havoc on our fisheries. A local owner shot four of these things in one night! They had been ravaging his ponds.

The other interesting point was that most of these "liberations" were in the Norfolk area where there were a lot of mink farms!

Now the interesting point is that these mink are "non-native species" and can be shot as vermin, unlike the protected otter.

Otters are part of our countryside and hopefully will spread over all of their old habitats, but unlike the mink they were never in great numbers, so the damage they do will be limited, they are after all solitary animals except when they have their young! Again, unlike mink which tend to like company!

To make accusations without any real substantiating evidence is merely stirring up controversy, we must await more scientific analysis of the affect of otters in areas where they have been released and maybe someone such as the EA should set up a research programme into the spread of mink and the damage they are doing.

Bryan Baron 2 · May 5, 2009

The mink are a big problem on the Ribble. They were released back in the early 70's.

Never seen a otter on the ribble but see mink on nearly every trip.

Dave Burr · May 5, 2009

Donald

I'm sorry but you are very wrong, otters do indeed kill fish and eat only a small amount of the flesh and vital organs. They often seem to kill fish just to play with them, i have seen pictures of a 17lb plus pike and a double figure trout from the Test with hardly any flesh eaten but they were both killed by an otter. I have found plenty of dead - part eaten barbel on the Wye.

I've also witnessed a twenty pound carp killed and dragged from the lake onto a pontoon, no mink will ever do that!

Do not underestimate the damage that mink can do, they are especially fond of barbel in cold weather when the fish are docile.

The main food source of the otter has always been the eel but with them in steep decline it is pure folly to fill the rivers with otters that will turn to other species and upset an age old food chain. Also, there is far more pressure on our waters nowadays from leisure and agricultural areas, theloss of fish to cormorants is bad enough but to add otters to the mix may be enough to push some waters over the edge and leave them incapable of restocking themselves naturally.

The cormorant problem has been largely dealt with outside of the law, the otter situation is likely to go the same way.

Donald Bain · May 5, 2009

Dave, I've actually witnessed a mink drag a dead carp weighing around 16lb out of the water!

Have you actually witnessed any of this personally?

Otters kill to eat, although young otters seem to play with prey fish as they learn how to hunt, they all have to learn this survival method.

The number of otters in the countryside is still insignicant for the number of incidents attributed to them to be real, the culprit is 20 times more likely to be the mink, especially in certain areas.

I agree that the main staple of the otter, the eel, is sadly in decline, probably due to overfishing by Man!

There are still plenty of fish in our rivers, we need natural predators in them to preserve a natural balance, and the stupid behaviour of some anflers who wantonly kill pike underlines this need!

In a well balenced eco-system there is a need for balance, otherwise the fish stocks will become stunted and prone to disease as they are weakened when natural food stocks decline due their ever increasing numbers.

Cormorants were a real problem, they were are real killlers, but remember they were not the native British species, often called "the Shag," but the non-native European bird which was an inland species, not a marine bird like our own.

I lose a few fish every year from my garden pond to a family of herons who live on a nearby lake, but I wouldn't dream of killing them, they are too beautiful for that! I can soon replace the fishfrom the nursery.

alan whittington · May 6, 2009

Donald,all creatures have a place in the chain but like it or not humans hunted otters to virtual extinction in large parts of the UK and humans have probably been the underlying cause of the demise of lots of our rivers but you cant just dump pods of otters indescriminately along our river systems without first studying their capability of sustaining them,the main reason that barbel are susceptable is that during the winter they have a tendency to lie almost dormant which leaves them open to predation.My worry as always is that the British public only see the cuddly things with feathers or fur and anything below the waters surface is irrelevant and doesnt matter,also if barbel or any other species of fishis lost to certain catchment areas is that not just as important as the otter,i think so but many animal lovers do not,YOU CANT BUY A 20LB BARBEL AT YOUR LOCAL GARDEN CENTER/forum/smilies/dont_tell_anyone_smiley.gif.

Fin the Fish · May 6, 2009

We can but hope that otters around the country are living on a diet of carp, carp, and carp

alan whittington · May 6, 2009

The afore mentioned article shows a much sadder picture Fin,and i must say i am not in favour of slaughter but somebody has to make some moves before we have only starvingotters left on our rivers what the hell do i pay my rod licence for,not for the protection of the rivers and their fish stocks surely.

Mark Hewitt · May 6, 2009

<blockquote class=quoteheader>Donald Bain wrote (see)</blockquote><blockquote class=quote>

Dave, I've actually witnessed a mink drag a dead carp weighing around 16lb out of the water!</blockquote>

That's quite a claim Donald, bearing in mind adult Mink in the wild only weigh about 2lbs.

They are quite common on a number of my local venues, and have been for over 20 years. In that time, I've yet to come across a 'large' fish half eaten on the bank?

I'm keen on wildlife, but unsure of the benefits of re-introducing numbers of otters in areas they've not inhabited for years. These ecosystems will have changed a lot since the times otters roamed free.

Specihunter · May 6, 2009

shame we can't train them to eat the signal crayfish

Donald Bain · May 6, 2009

Actually Specihunter, otters love crayfish, it is part of their staple diet in the wild!

Mark, ever seen a stoat kill and carry a rabbit many times it's own weight? Quite a common sight. A mink is a very strong animal, pro ratio to it's weight!

Alan, Man has created the imbalance in the natural ecosystem and it is up to us to repair, besides, barbel are not native to many of the rivers they now inhabit, such as the Severn and the Wye! They were illegal introductions and decimated the existing ecosystem, as did Zander in the Fens!

Anglers must not cast stones as we live in a glasshouse!

And as for 20lb barbel, where the hell are they in our rivers? My local rivers are full of them but none reach that weight because of overpopulation!

It is a fact that with fewer fish competing for the existing foodstocks, they will grow bigger! Only a river with a good head of natural predators, such as the Trent, sees barbel of any great size....but I still can't get my double! Had them upto 9 15ozs but never the magic 10!

Otters are here to stay and will do some damage to commercial fishery stocks, but compared to mink they are insignificant. Maybe we should eradicate the mink, that way there will be more for the otters in their natural home, the river.

Cakey · May 6, 2009

I met this one on Saturday just gone

Mark Hewitt · May 6, 2009

<blockquote class=quoteheader>Donald Bain wrote (see)</blockquote><blockquote class=quote>

Mark, ever seen a stoat kill and carry a rabbit many times it's own weight? Quite a common sight. A mink is a very strong animal, pro ratio to it's weight!</blockquote>

Donald,

I'm no expert in this field, so please see I'm raising these questions in order to learn more......

I see your point, but I feel there is a great difference between a Stoat moving a Rabbit carcass across land and a Mink catching and killing a fish 10x its weight under water, bringing it to the surface, then dragging it up the bank.I'm not dismissing this, and would be interested to see evidence.

Regarding Chris Turnbulls artical, you suggest a mink is the most likely cause of the evidence he's presented. Does that include the partialy eaten 25lbs pike in one picture. As open minded as I am, I will take alot of convincing that it was caught, killed, brought through the water and up the bank by an anphibious creature (mink) weighing around 2lbs.

Ray Daywalker Clarke · May 6, 2009

What Zoo was that Cakey??

The Ouse had barbel to 20lb, just the one mind you at Adams Mill. I have seen mink there plenty of them but never an Otter, and i have fished there since 1968.

The barbel at Adams Mill are at the end of their live span, many forget that. These fish are not being killed off, they are old fish, yet the other fish species are doing fine.

The only time i saw Otters on the Ouse was at Leas Brook, and that was more than 30 years ago, and the fishing was great, even with a family of 4 Otters.

Otters belong in our waters, like it or not, and the biggest danger to the rivers and the planet is the human race, not the wildlife.

Mark Hewitt · May 6, 2009

I agree Ray, the biggest threat to wildlife is human activity, and interferance.

I a bid fan of allowing nature to control things. Humans releasing numbers of animals into the wild isn't always the best course of action - in my opinion.

I too am awildlife lover, admire the otter as a creature, and would welcome it as a 'balanced' part of a natural ecosystem.

Ray Daywalker Clarke · May 6, 2009

I agree Mark it must be balanced, but nature will balance itself, we can't have anglers running round killing anything and everything because they eat fish, can we. Fuel for the Antis, and that kind of action would only turn more of the public against angling.

If a cull should be needed at sometime, then let it be done in the right way, by the right people, but I don't think for one moment we will get to the stage. I also think there is a hell of a lot of knee jerk to this.

I am not saying otters are not eating some fish, but there are those making it bigger than it is.

Otters,is there anyone out there to protect our fish

alan whittington

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