AT; irresponsible reporting

I got my weekly copy of the Angling Times today, great free gifts, gave them to some kids at the ponds.

I was flicking through it, as I usually do, when I came across Greg Whiteheads piece on Otters and the devastation they are reportedly doing.

Now we had a good old debate about this on FM, the outcome of which was pretty clear,ie; there is no scientific evidence to support these stories of Otters killing off huge numbers of fish and the very low number of otters in England does not support these claims.

Yet Greg Whitehead wrote a very unresearched article, damning the otter for causing devastation all over! It was sheer headline grabbing junk! I'm sorry Greg but a very good friend of mine, ex-AT reporter, agrees, it should have been more carefully researched and not just rely upon hear-say evidence from people who never actually saw an otter!

Greg, I usually enjoy your articles, bith here and in the AT, but you have a responsibility to report truthfully, not make up a story that is both emotional and badly resourced.

I am now seriously thinking of packing in a 45 year readership of the AT and reporting this to the RSPCA, they will take a very dim view of such reckless verbage.

Sorry folks but this really got to me!

Do yourself a favour, don't buy either the Angling Times or Anglers Mail. "Headline grabbing junk" just about sums up the article content of both, the remainder being commercially biased 'reviews' or just plain adverts. Not worth taking seriously or getting stressed about. Sensationalist drivel is the only way they can generate repeat sales, vote with your wallet.

Just my 2p

I know it's beside the point but what free gifts did you get?

<blockquote class=quoteheader>Matthew White wrote (see)</blockquote><blockquote class=quote>

I know it's beside the point but what free gifts did you get? </blockquote>

30 pieces of silver

/forum/smilies/wink_smiley.gif

I defence of Greg, I'm a sucker for lost causes, (I'm even a LP member) although I have not read the piece in question Chris Turnbull wrote a pretty much evidence based article in the last C.A.T. magazine.

Otters are becoming over populated in many areas, a friend who lives in rural Northumberland has found 4 road-kill otters this yearalone around his local village

Who can name this breed?/forum/smilies/devil_smiley.gif

I don't buy AT any more so I didn't read the article and can't comment directly on it. However, I also shoot a lot as well as being a very keen angler and one thing that always occurs where there is a readily available (and seemingly unlimited) source of food is an increase in the animals that will predate on the food source. Otters are indigenous to the British Isles and predation of fish on natural waterways was always going to happen (and furore results when they kill a known and named carp or barbel). Overstocked commercial fisheries will act like a magnet to these beasties and, with such an abundant andready supply of food, the otter's natural territorial instincts are diluted and you tend to get a larger number of them in a smaller area. On natural venues with a more restrained level of fish stocks, otters will revert to their territorial behaviour resulting in a much more widely distributed population. I honestly don't see an issue with an otter population well spaced on a river system. Otters eat fish, but they don't eat them all.

When some elements of the country went into mourning when it was reported that an otter had eaten The Traveller, I had a bit of a giggle. Live with it - Izaac Walton did.

Has anyonecommented onthe fact that the preferred diet of otters is the eel? With the decline in eel populations otters have had to change their diet somewhat. Perhaps if we see a resurgence in the eel population 'Son of Traveller' might just get to weigh as much as his dad.

Otter hound DZ? You are a naughty boy.

John H, the article by Chris Turnbull, which I did read, was not based on any scientific research at all, purely upon "heresay" and stuff from God knows where!

The facts have already been put on the table in the FM debate upon this issue., ie;

There are only about 12-15,000 Otters in the UK, most of them, 8,000 or so, living in Scotland.

Most of the rest live in the Southwest, North or North East.

There are small populations in East Anglia, best count about 24-30.

There are also some in Glouscester and Worcester and some in Wales.

Obviously there will be odd otters found around the fringes of these areas as they begin to spread out.

As for otters killing off whole stretches of river by predation on fish stocks, that is pure fantasy!

They will have a bonanza if the come across a Commercial that is well stocked, but they tend to avoid anywhere where people are there in numbers.

The most likely culprits for the "fish killings" are mink. cormorants and Herons. Tehy are there in much greater numbers than the otter.

Also, these, unlike the otter, will kill for the fun of it, bit like a fox in a chicken pen!

Greg should check out the KNOWN facts before giving a bias and unresearched article.

PS; I will no longer buy or read the AT!

Good point about the mink. I have shot quite a few of these things in my time, most recently in the south Hampshire area where these voracious killers had a field day after being released by animal rights activists from fur farms (a dreadful trade but a stupid thing for the activists to do). Fish, water voles and ducks were wantonly slaughtered in huge numbers with very little evidence of the kill being eaten (mainly just parts of the head).

I'm just wondering how many reported sightings of 'otters' are actually mink? The first time my wife saw a mink she thought it was an otter. Clearly otters are around in some areas, but to those who are unfamiliar with either the mink or the otter it's a mistake that could easily be made.

Quite right Phil, mink are often mistaken for otters by those who do not know the two apart, despite the otter being much larger than the mink!

We shot a few mink up around us just recently, they'd discovered how easy it was to get a meal in a local commercial fishery!

Phil,

Were these the mink releasedat Ringwood? I remember it well as it was very near to where I live. It was an absolute nightmare forquite a while.

When I was on theBicton syndicate a few years ago there wereotters there but it didn't stop me catching plenty offish, including some good chub. Themink didn't last long there as the otters sorted them out.

Here we go again

There are only about 12-15,000 Otters in the UK, most of them, 8,000 or so, living in Scotland. estimated from data and research without proper research that is the main gripe of those who have concerns as to the issue at hand....However, the last British Mammal study of 2008 which included a grid of 10sq Kmtrs over the whole country reported Otter evidence at 72% of those grids...

Most of the rest live in the Southwest, North or North East. .... Nope, the same WildCru report showed that otter populations have reached considerable densities in the West, North to add to the already considerable densities of animals in the sout and south-west....

There are small populations in East Anglia, best count about 24-30.... where the hell is that from.. did you not read the 2009 Bedfordshire Otter Survey on the other thread and the report findings and recommendations?... interesting map too

There are also some in Glouscester and Worcester and some in Wales....SOME?.. Some? Wales and the West has seen one of the biggest increases in Otters with last report in 2005 reporting otter evidence at 74% of the grids used over the whole country....

Obviously there will be odd otters found around the fringes of these areas as they begin to spread out....Not begin... they have spread, and will continue to in massive numbers.. from July 2007 until July 2008 over 1,000 Otters were sent for Autopsy after roadkill alone.. new figures I found...

As for otters killing off whole stretches of river by predation on fish stocks, that is pure fantasy!...no one has said they will...most have raised concerns as to the serious impact this apex predator is having and what will happen to our fish stocks and that specimen fish ARE being plundered by this animal (yes, it's nature) without any help or support for anglers, clubs or fisheries...

They will have a bonanza if the come across a Commercial that is well stocked, but they tend to avoid anywhere where people are there in numbers...or they'll just wait till it's dark!

The most likely culprits for the "fish killings" are mink. cormorants and Herons. Tehy are there in much greater numbers than the otter...nope, whilst mink will take live fish, their preference is for smaller fish than those highlighted cases and they will almost certainly prefer, birds and other mammals in their diet.. like to see a mink orheron or cormorant drag a 25lb carp out of the water.. as for greater numbers of mink... Nope again, minks numbers in areas of Otter populations are showing a 65% decrease in the same WildCru study...

Also, these, unlike the otter, will kill for the fun of it, bit like a fox in a chicken pen!..yes, they will kill for fun... BUT, an otter will also kill a 25lb fish and only eat 1 or 2lb of it leaving the rest for other feeders (mink, rats etc)

Greg should check out the KNOWN facts before giving a bias and unresearched article....I've not read Gregs article... but I would suggest that you check your facts before lambasting him on here...

PS; I will no longer buy or read the AT!....I'm going to buy it today for the first time in ages!

and remember.. I like otters... I don't like the lack of help/support and the effect un-regulated/researched populations are having on the sport of angling.....Neither should any Angler...or have we got a case of NIMBYISM here?

and remember.. I like otters... I don't like the lack of help/support and the effect un-regulated/researched populations are having on the sport of angling.....Neither should any Angler...or have we got a case of NIMBYISM here?

Good point Patrick. I am not a scientific person but I am observant. I believe that the increase in the number of otters had a bad short term effect on my local rivers. The signs are though that things are now balancing out and good fish are coming through. Things certainly change and this is very interesting for those, like me, who like to move around and fish many stretches. Very big fish now turn up in places where there were only average fish before, big fish stretches appear devoid of fish before the sudden appearance of new fast growing fish etc. The changes are constant and I find them very interesting.

Phil's point about the eels is also valid. If we had eels in the quantities there were otters would be no problem at all. Perhaps more should be done to restore eels to their former numbers.

Iam sure Greg is sincere in his writing and much of what he says is true, but I am a little more optimistic about the future as thigs always balance out.

Well done Greg for defending fish and angling.

If river eco systemsare so healthy why didn't otter populations increase and spread?

Because they are not healthy. That's why they are resorting to eating large carp and barbel. There aren't many small fish or eels left to eat.

Do gooders, cocking up the environment, without thinking first.

FACT

I will carry on buying the AT

Funny how few people got worked up about these obviously sick rivers while there were still a few, large, individual remnants of the last successful spawning (or stocking) left from years ago to give people their precious PBs.

I've never met a "do-gooder", not sure what one is, but I think it's alabel givento people who happen to care about something enough to try to change something, even if they happen not to fully understand the overall implications. Does that make Chris Turnbull a "do-gooder"? What about Les Webber? Mark Lloyd? Personally Isuspect it says more about the labeller than the labelled.

I also read the article in C.A.T., the picturelegends were in my opinion emotive and misleading. Unless the fish were seen being captured by Otters, and were subsequently examined by a qualified individual to show that they weren't already in poor overall health by normal standards for the species (egg retention, anyone?), they are in no way evidence of anything.

What needs to happen is that the probable causes of the poor recruitment across all fish species in allthese rivers generally needs to be fully identified, and a campaign organised to deal with these at root, as opposed to something that just happens to be impacting a few sad leftovers. But that might take a "do-gooder", and we couldn't have that.

For now, all those getting angry aboutthe Otter, andmisunderstanding and misinterpreting the onlinepublished works about the species, you'd be better off shouting at your neighbour for washing his car with a hose and leaving it running, or picketing your local golf coursewhen they put the sprinklers on, or protesting about the inefficiencies of what your local water utilities company considers acceptable practise as long as the shareholders get their dibs (and you might want to check your pension providers while you're at it, some of them might have invested in these same utility companies).

Strange, you seem to be in a minority Donald. But then again, it was you after allwho was sprouting the most God-aweful tosh in the recent thread you refer to, a thread youmisguidingly conclude that you had the right of.

I see you didn't hop in your car and come down to the Welland so I could show you the otters on my local patch. Or maybe you're one of those who thinks I can't tell the difference between an otter and a mink. Well I am a bit short-sighted. Having said that I've shot a few of the latter in my time, one from about 3ft away when I cornered it in a wood pile!

I am intregued as to which part of my article it is that you feel is poorly researched (remembering I didn't write the sensationalist headline). I quote the head of the UK Otter BAP, the two most travelled specimen anglers in the country and Chris Turnbull. Phil Smith in particular is relevant - he caught double-figure barbel from no fewer than 17 different rivers in the 2006/07 season, yet the next year he struggled to manage doubles from three! Maybe all the double-figurebarbel in England and Wales suddenlydecided tohop on a jet for a holiday in Oz.......

I think you will find that the worrying lack of research ison the part ofthose civil servants whose wages we pay and who haven't got the faintest clue how many otters there are out there.

And Donald, don't be so daft to assume that just because you don't seem to have many ottersin Yorkshire that there aren't manyelsewhere in the country. I've lost count of the number of anglers who have, unprompted,mentioned sighting otters on their local stretches of river over the past two or threeyears, and these are dedicated big fish anglers in the main who can tell otters from mink.

So, just to make sure someone, somewhere does some proper scientific investigation, I am proposing to get two stretches of the Welland surveyed for an article in Angling Times. The firstwill be inthe third meadow above Stamford, a public stretch that receives little predation from cormorants, otters or mink. The stretch contains a wide range of year classes of every species.The other is an isolatedstretch two-and-a-half miles downstream of the town that is heavily predated by cormarants and otters (never seen a mink there, so I have no idea if they're present). On that stretch I can'tsee or catchany fish species apart from stockie brownieson any baits I try, yet I see an otter every other time I fish the stretch and there are slides and runs everywhere. I am supremely confident that the results will be extremelyshocking!

So, for your information, an irresponsible article would have been one which called for a cull, or onewhich revealed that people are quietly killing them in fyke nets, gill nets andcray fish traps, and not so quietly with high velocity rifles. It's either that or let them destroy hundreds of thousands of pounds of private investment - not much of a choice really is it?!?!?

My article pushes for scientific research to be carried out by the people each angler in the country pays money to for the right to fish. They have a statutory responsibility to maintain and safeguard our fisheries and the fish in them. Maybe if we get the support and advice we pay them for then we won't one day read in the nationals about how cruel, heartless maggot drowners are murdering poor, helpless, fluffy little tarkas!

As for threats that you'll never buy the paper again, knock yourself out. I gave up being concerned about such rants ages ago. AT is presently increasing its sales month by month. This is because it's a good product. I couldn't actuallygive a monkeys what you think, the majority of consumers are always right!

"What needs to happen is that the probable causes of the poor recruitment across all fish species in allthese rivers generally needs to be fully identified, and a campaign organised to deal with these at root, as opposed to something that just happens to be impacting a few sad leftovers. But that might take a "do-gooder", and we couldn't have that."

And he was me thinking that that was what I was driving at in my story:

"...we restore all our waterways back to their natural state which had allowed otters and fish to live alongside each other for 15m years."

<blockquote class=quoteheader>Greg Whitehead wrote (see)</blockquote><blockquote class=quote>

"...we restore all our waterways back to their natural state which had allowed otters and fish to live alongside each other for 15m years."</blockquote>
That sounds good to me Greg