Mouth damaged fish. What can we do?

It saddens me (and members of the public) to see mouth damaged fish as a result of angling. I feel its time we took a hard look at this less pleasant aspect of our sport and worked together to discuss and suggest ways of reducing it.

I'd like to open an honest debate on the perceived causes, impact and possible risk to the future of our sport/hobby it presents. Is there any acceptable ways to reduce it without diluting the anglers enjoyment? Should damaged fish be retired from commercial fisheries? Are we honest enough to accept our shared responsibility, isolate the causes and make changes? Do we need outside assistance/official intervention or can we effectively manage this problem ourselves? Or do you feel that there's no problem as things are?

Just some of the points I'd like debated in a friendly and honest way, I'm sure there's plenty more. Some may feel a debate on this is fuel for those who disagree with angling, for myself I feel it’s more important that we are seen to be doing something about it.

How much does it effect YOU?

Hello Chris,

I'm not sure if there is much that can be done.
Any hooking of a fish will cause some degree of mouth damage, the more a fish is caught i assume the more damage will be done.
It will probably open up that old debate of whether we should use Barbed or Barbless hooks.
As for whether or not fish with severe mouth damage should be retired from any water never mind commercials should be down to the fishery owner.
It's a difficult subject to bridge as everyone will have there own personal opinions and idea's.

Tight Lines

A difficult subject it is, and one I hope is worth the thoughtful consideration of the fine anglers on this forum. I'm sure most of us have witnessed severe damage at some point, any new ideas on reducing the risks have to be worth exploring, even repetition of old debate serves to raise awareness to new anglers reading here.

What can you do to stop it? Nothing unless you ban fishing altogether I reckon.

We have had endless debates on here about whether barbed or barbless hooks are better, we have had many opinions, but that isn't fact, and whilst some 'experts' say barbless hooks don't cause as much damage others say they do, who is right is again a matter of opinion.

I believe there are a number of causes of mouth damage and most of it is caused by anglers rather than the hooks, over-enthusiastic striking is one for instance but there are others.

I feel it stems from the way modern society and life in general is heading. Anglers , now I certainly don't mean all anglers here , are getting lazy , they would rather go to the carpark swim down at the local bagging pond , and haul out 100lbs plus of fish , it seems frightening to me , how many times over these fish are caught , with the damage that ensues.
Living in Norfolk , there are literally mile upon mile of rivers , teeming with fish ,many never see a hook in their lives , but it appears just too much effort , to walk what is sometimes only a matter of a few hundred yards to fish for them.
So perhaps angling , and the modern "takeaway meal " society have themselves to blame .
BTW , this is only my personal view , and in no way whatsoever , do I tarnish all anglers the same.

Andy.

I think the barbed/barbless debate has been well enough covered for anglers to make their own informed choices. You mentioned overly enthusiastic striking Graham, do you think the promotion of stretchy mainline would eleviate this? One other area I personally think is an issue with big fish is the use of high-poundage leaders which allow the forceful removal of fish from weed/snags.

With 3lb + test curve rods, braided lines, 3 oz plus leads in vogue, not to mention fishing right up to snags on 'locked' set ups, is it any wonder that mouth damage is on the increase?

Until sensible tackle becomes fashionable, this will continue.

Barbed or barbless? Makes no difference whatsoever. A carp's mouth is ripped through pressure on the hookhold, how can a small sliver of extra metal make any difference at all, either way?

Chris Season32 said:

I think the barbed/barbless debate has been well enough covered for anglers to make their own informed choices. You mentioned overly enthusiastic striking Graham, do you think the promotion of stretchy mainline would eleviate this? One other area I personally think is an issue with big fish is the use of high-poundage leaders which allow the forceful removal of fish from weed/snags.

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This is always a subject well worth discussing.

For my own part I was asked about this very problem on a local lake. The owners put it down to boilies and braid, which is also a nonsense. On a day where they didn't enforce any rules, I caught 8 carp fairly in the front lip and the braid was nowhere near the lip. All were unhooked without any physical sign of damage.

Now, it is true to say that regular hooking will cause some ulceration around the mouth area, but the problems on this lake extended to tissue being cut from the scissors (joint of lips) upwards. When I heard, indeed read a match report, on the top method used it involved 20+ elastics on strong poles with the object of getting the fish in fast so they could catch another.

I wrote about this at the time and the fact that many manufacturers seem to encourage this style of fishing with the names they give to their poles etc., Jurassic Carp, The Enforcer, Bully Boy tops. This is a comment from my article -

Our club has a couple of small lakes, one of which is matchfished and even loaned out to visiting clubs, but we don't experience this level of damage. This is mainly, I believe, because most anglers are told when the carp goes on a run, dip the tip of the pole under the water and the carp comes back with less effort. Why this should be I don't know entirely, but I've expressed the opinion before in the forum that maybe the carp doesn't mind being pulled through the water (level), yet he objects to being pulled out of the water (upwards).

Although we now see some damage to our fish, I still hold the view that bullying fish (as well as hard striking) is the main cause. There should be no need to use an elastic stronger than 14s, or if so then it would be better to use a running line on a carp rod.

It would also be better if ALL anglers carried with them Klin-ik, which sterilises the area, to treat any severe hookhold wounds immediately. This might possibly help, but often matchmen will say they don't have time as this could waste them the match.

In the end it is down to fishery owners, but they must take into account ALL the comments and any evidence.

Well here are my thoughts. There's no doubt in my mind at all that a barbed
hook will cause somewhat more damage, not a lot maybe but some indeed.
But the main thing i think contributes most , as already stated heavy non
stretch lines such as braid and also these carp cruncher hit and hold poles, in fact any heavy line ,large hook , stiff rod hit and hold tactics must tare at the mouth. I think its all down to hyped up carp manufactures getting on the bandwaggon ,and all the younger anglers mad for the biggest and best carp , useing heavy bolt rigs massive leaders ,in fact everything now is enormous.
Where as all the fine art gone from fishing. Soft action rods fine hooks and mono lines, and i have to think back realy a long long way to a time when i caused a fish mouth damage. I'm not trying to stir things up here , but i've had 15lb carp out in a quite snaggy swim on 6lb line and a 12 hook . Why do we need to go to such monstorous lenghts then just to land a fish. I tell you why cos there's no patience anymore no ones got the time to play a fish , thats a waste of time better to just yank it in , then we can get another quicker.

Its the world today thats done it ,everything has to be now and as fast as possible .I watched a bloke last year in the next swim to me. Iv'e known him for a while, nice bloke fishes on a pole. Well this particular morning i saw him catch a bream, the float went under he struck and pulled it over then net all withing ten secs. 7 lb it was, God i said to him you didnt want to loose that one, no fear he said i got 20 bungie elastic and 15lb line on direct to an 8 hook ,no way he was getting away. Now do you realy call that fishing or what. I was gobsmacked. But who am i to say what is right and what is wrong. All i can do is do it my way and pray the world will slow down a bit so that we can enjoy our sport in a better way.

I,m running on a bit here but you asked for oppinions , so i'll quickly give you another one . Last week i had 5 chub out of a small swim near me 3 of em were over 5 lb. I used a 13' float rod 4 lb mainline kamasan hook to nylon 3 .12oz to a 20 barbless. Now i went down there the other day and a guy was in the swim, i introduced meself and asked how he was getting on , cor bloody place is useless he said, someone told me there were good chub here. Ain had a dam bite he said. Now this guy had a 12' carp rod 12lb main line to 10 wiv a waggler the size of my old womans clothes prop, and yes i did give the poor lad a few pointers. Lets all try to teach not only the beginers but also the less educated younger folk that have never been taught.

I bet if you look at the fishing population today you would find that 80% dont go roach , perch , dace , gudgeon, bream, or even tench fishing anymore ? , why cos there too small, hehe. So to cap it all my view is this . It aint all the barbed hooks , Its the uneducated. You all have agood day. And i'm sorry if you find this hard to read but i aint a *******writer. Ta Ta

I think that mouth damage to commercial fish in general is down to inexperienced anglers using far too heavy line, elastic and powerful rods where they bully the fish into the net far too quickly.

My view on landing fish is, to get them in slowly and safely is far better than to lose or damage them quickly.

I hate the idea that match men are prepared to damage fish for the sake of a few seconds although I have no doubts that this happens.

At this years FM match at clattercote (i was pegged between Mr Marsden and Mr Maidment),i caught a carp of about 7lbs that absolutely horrified me.
After landing it and placing it on the mat for unhooking,i saw that alot of it mouth and lips were missing,a big gap existed where it`s i suppose chin area should be and what looked like giblets were half hanging out.
I dont know if it was disease or infection due to mouth damage by tackle or what???
It was enought to put me off matches on comercial type waters for the rest of my life to be honest....it was disgusting.

Funny, I don't think I've ever seen fresh damage on a float-caught fish, whether with barbed or barbless hooks.
I can't help but suspect that the time barbed hooks are safer is in bolt-rigging, with a quarter-pound lead bouncing inches from the hook - tear along the dotted line.

I fish thorpe Lea sometimes. This is a day ticket venue where a lot of fish get caught, repeat captures are common and it's fished by lots of beginners with all kinds of heavy tackle, lines and hooks of all types. Many of the fish have mouth damage but the damage is almost always very old damage, from before they were introduced from a midlands match venue. They already had the damage when they were put in so I can only conclude the damage was due to poor match fishing unhooking techniques from when they were small fish. Nothing to do with tackle, instead it's mainly due to poor angling practices. What to do about it? Educate everyone you see mishandling fish.

Oh well, that proves it, no one knows what causes it and how to stop it.

Disrespect is what causes it , by the people who have no respect for the thing that brings them all that pleasure and makes fishing a sport to die for.

I know i've caused a bit of damage to very occasional fish, usually by striking and playing a small fish with too much force - the joys of tiny roach, rudd and perch gobbling down biggish hooks.

But I do take a korda carp care kit with me everytime I go fishing, I'd like to see more clubs requiring you to have a care kit on you to fish their lakes, it might not stop mouth damage, but it will help to stop it getting worse.

There's a local fishery that we've fished fairly regularly for a few years now and we've noticed that sometimes up to half the carp caught have mouths so badly deformed that you wouldn't believe they could feed enough to survive let alone grow, but they do. I had one on my last visit of about 5lb whose mouth was so small you could only just get a finger into it, and there are lots of others just like it. The fishery is well run with a barbless hook rule ever since we've been going there, and it is by no means heavily fished. I used to think it was damage caused by careless fishing, but I'm not so sure now. I'm wondering if it could be a genetic deformity in the breeding stock. I've seen hook damaged mouths but these are something else

Match fishing is as old as the hills, yet this is very much a recent problem.

The common denominator is carp and mainly those in a commercial fishery. The problems are largely from regular and repeat capture, which is the way of the world on commercial waters. They are usually relatively small, heavily stocked, heavily fished and low in natural food, so it goes without saying they will be caught 10 or 20 times more often than the average bream in a club lake.

The more times they are hooked, the more chance of damage, less time for them to heal etc....

Modern fishing and unless someone regulates commercial fisheries I don't see how things will improve significantly.

Sited as causes so far are: Heavy handedness in general and matches. Overgunned elastics, rods, and line/braid. Heavy bolt rigs, disrespect and 'insta-reward attitudes' (which I'd personally like to lay at the feet of commercial media, however unpopular as that may be). I find it hard to poke a finger at manufacturers as they respond to demand. All the usual suspects are here. After mulling this over I think the next question should be 'What can we do, and how do we get people to do it?'

Nick, I had a several fish last season that were equally disturbing. One of them I showed to the fishery manager on his rounds. His response was "its healed put it back" (it was cut right through past the gills and looked like something from a horror show). I've not been back to that fishery, its not something I want to see again. I think there is a responsibility to be carried by all fisheries, they are the canvas of our sport and very much in the public eye. I feel there is a real danger of a foothold for the anti's in this, and that commercial fisheries in particular should be doing something about it, retiring damaged fish and making a point of preventative measures.

Wolfman Woody said:

----snip----
Our club has a couple of small lakes, one of which is matchfished and even loaned out to visiting clubs, but we don't experience this level of damage. This is mainly, I believe, because most anglers are told when the carp goes on a run, dip the tip of the pole under the water and the carp comes back with less effort. Why this should be I don't know entirely, but I've expressed the opinion before in the forum that maybe the carp doesn't mind being pulled through the water (level), yet he objects to being pulled out of the water (upwards).

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Agreed, they definately give less resistance when being pulled along as opposed to upwards. Something that multiple world champion Alan Scothorne also uses to great effect with rod and line. I play my big fish with this same inverted rod action wherever possible (tip down), another benefit being it often brings the fish higher up in the water when on a run, away from bottom snags. Maybe this is something that should be encouraged more widely on commercials.

This is also the best way of playing a big carp on a fly-rod.

How does one 'retire' these damaged fish? Do you mean kill/cull them? If so, that would mean destroying 80% of the stock on some of these waters