Re: The World's Biggest Carp Caught on Rod and Line

MarkTheSpark · Aug 6, 2009

Re: The World's Biggest Carp Caught on Rod and Line

Is it just me, or does anyone else find the whole premise of Thailand ponds stocked with monster fish offensive?
I couldn't believe John Wilson endorsing this concept but I'm shocked it has survived as long as this. Let's get some perspective on this; these are, at best, small lakes stocked with fish that can only thrive in huge waters. Think 40lb ressy pike stuffed into 1/2-acre lakes and you get the picture.
It's not just the falsehood of these fish living in these lakes, it's what these fish are. They have shipped arapaima from South America to Thailand to make the tills ring. Arapaima - the world's biggest freshwater fish, under pressure in its native country from poaching and deforestation. That's like catching a tiger in India and plonking it in a game reserve in Africa to be shot at.
I sincerely hope that most FMers would feel the same as I do... that this kind of fishery, in Thailand or anywhere else, is an obscenity. Anglers make these great claims to be guardians of the environment, striding to the horizon on their wild quest, and then along come these places to undermine the argument.

Stealph Viper · Aug 6, 2009

I don't know enough about all the facts to comment on this, but, are commercial fisheries not the same as in stocking?
Ok the fish are different, but the concept sounds similar.
Large stocks of fish in small waters, isn't just found in Thailand.

Paul H · Aug 6, 2009

Where there is money to be made and loopholes to be exploited - or laws that allow it - unscrupulous people with low moral fibre will take advantage. Always.

MarkTheSpark · Aug 6, 2009

Stealph Viper said:
I don't know enough about all the facts to comment on this, but, are commercial fisheries not the same as in stocking?
Ok the fish are different, but the concept sounds similar.
Large stocks of fish in small waters, isn't just found in Thailand.

My point exactly, Stealph. I've a big problem with unnatural fisheries, especially those where the fish would simply die if not kept alive with bait.
It's what all this does to our image that bothers me most. It's like birdwatchers stuffing goldfinches into cages so they can get a closer look. We shouldn't be creating situations that make everything in the garden look rosy, and fish easy to catch, when there are real problems in the natural world. The fact that there are more tigers in zoos than in India doesn't mean that the tigers are doing OK.
To say nothing of the problems we have already caused around the world by trafficking non-native species. Will we ever learn? Some bloke who runs a pond in Thailand can have no notion of what an introduced South American fish parasite could do to native fish, nor any understanding of how to contain such problems.
Personally, if I ruled the angling publications I would not give these places credibility by publishing stories about them. They are, in my view, a hideous travesty of the word 'angling' - no better than game ranches where you can shoot animals behind wore fences.

noknot · Aug 6, 2009

Mmmmmmmmmm Rainbow Trout, Zander and Wels Catfish spring to mind? And Carp for that matter! By the way, the Biggest Carp caught in Thailand was a Siamese Carp which by the name are indigenous to the Mekong river along with the Giant Mekong Catfish.

I have not fished these places myself, but a good friend of mine does, and is infact there at the moment and has caught some splendid Cats and Carp and has caught Arapaima to World record size all in immaculate condition I might add, I will show him this thread next week on his return and he may comment?

" They are, in my view, a hideous travesty of the word 'angling' - no better than game ranches where you can shoot animals behind wore fences"

So how would you define "commercials" that fill barren farm ponds with Carp that contain no or little natural food, which means to Carp rely on anglers baits to survive? And are caught repeatedly by match or Carp anglers on over-gunned tackle which will cause irreparable damage to the mouths, this is today in the Carp Mecca of the UK, Maybe you need to get your own house in order before telling the rest of the World they are wrong?

MarkTheSpark · Aug 6, 2009

I wouldn't argue with any of that; yes, some of the commercial fisheries have got it wrong.
The fact that these fish are in good condition may prove they are being fed well enough but doesn't address the central question; this is not so much a question of animal welfare but of ethics.
I'm back to the game ranch analogy; what sporting value is there in capturing/killing fish/animals that are deprived of their freedom.... animals that can no longer behave as they would in the wild? And it does hinge around behaviour.
I would argue that there is a lesser case to answer on, for example, the big trout ressies, where fish stocked at 2lb become 10-pounders by finding their own, natural food. The trout have a chance to behave like trout. The same is true of big carp fisheries. But I have seen film of where arapaima live, and it ain't in murky ponds in Thailand.
If we spent more of our effort and money ensuring wild populations of fish were thriving, we'd have no need of artificiality like this. This fishmongering is a distraction from the kind of fishing so many FM members enjoy - wild places, wild fish. In fact, that would make a great slogan

farleybob · Aug 6, 2009

It sounds sort of like some zoo come gamepark, what ever way you look at it it seems cruel..

quattro · Aug 6, 2009

Chris Season32 · Aug 7, 2009

The baleful eye of the hungry entrepreneur, little escapes it. Ethics and money have always been poor bedfellows. Noknot has a point though, we've work to do here before pointing a finger at poorer nations for making some coin from travelling anglers.

MarkTheSpark · Aug 7, 2009

You know, your final comment about not knocking the Third World is one of those universal defences for foreign countries. We say 'ah well, we ripped out all our forests so I suppose we should let them do the same' It's the notion that the spread of enlightenment can be delayed if the recipient is ignorant of the consequences. It's rubbish.
We used to tear people into quarters with horses in the town centre. They haven't started that in, say, Sudan, so let's not criticise them if they do it. As if everyone deserves a crack at knackering the planet's ecology.
You're right that the Thais deserve to make some money from angling tourism. It's a great business, spreading money through poor economies... except when the visitor spends all their time living and fishing in someone's pond. Then only the proprietor gets the money.
The wild fishing in Thailand is incredible. They have massive rivers with big fish. To be fair to Siam Fishing Tours, they do take people to this kind of fishing. Look at THIS - that looks like some great fishing. And by staying in poor rural districts, you help spread the cash around a bit.

Chris Season32 · Aug 7, 2009

I can see your point of view, though I think the scale of your comparisons is a little unballanced.

"It's the notion that the spread of enlightenment can be delayed if the recipient is ignorant of the consequences". Please don't put words in my mouth, I wasn't promoting that notion, only stating that we are diong the same in our own commercials. Who's going to take any complaints seriously from a body who's doing the same thing??

Your comments on Forrests and Quartering (which I would be glad to see the return of for use on disgraced politicians and parking wardens) are historical, how are they relevant to the current situation?

noknot · Aug 7, 2009

I shall not comment on this one again, as I do not have the necessary first hand experience to do so, and will wait for the return of my fishing friend who is in Thailand now and introduce him to the FM forum, However do not think for one moment that all the monies go into the owners pockets! Be they Thai or foreign owners, as the guest anglers need accommodation, food, beer, bait and so on, which creates jobs and supports the local economies, so not all Bad, I have lived in Asia for the last 15 years and I have seen something's in that time, that's another story, I shall let my friend conclude on his return:

MarkTheSpark · Aug 8, 2009

Look forward to it, Noknot. But just to underline the fact that I'm not having a go at anyone personally - it's the principle and thics I'm concerned about

---------- Post added at 04:35 ---------- Previous post was at 04:31 ----------

Chris Season32 said:
I can see your point of view, though I think the scale of your comparisons is a little unballanced.
"It's the notion that the spread of enlightenment can be delayed if the recipient is ignorant of the consequences". Please don't put words in my mouth, I wasn't promoting that notion, only stating that we are diong the same in our own commercials. Who's going to take any complaints seriously from a body who's doing the same thing??

Your comments on Forrests and Quartering (which I would be glad to see the return of for use on disgraced politicians and parking wardens) are historical, how are they relevant to the current situation?

Not trying to put words in your mouth - that's what I think. We aren't doing quite the same in our commercials - in the main, native species are stocked, and the EA has clamped down very hard indeed on alien species. The arapaima are not native to Thailand, indeed, in my view it should be illegal to transport them across the pacific like this.
And the history IS relevant; that is the point I was making. Just because, historically, we have done something which we have later found out to be wrong/dangerous/unfair/unsound doesn't make it right for someone to repeat the error later.

noknot · Aug 8, 2009

Hi Mark, not taken personally at all.

Gary Newman · Aug 11, 2009

Thailand has a huge trade in exotic fish species, one of the largest in the world and it was possible to buy these fish before any of these lakes were created, it isn't like these fishery owners are importing them from S.America.
Arapaima for example are farmed in Thailand and the ones in the lakes over there have never been abroad, so you could argue that would make them native, theoretically, in the same way that anyone born in the UK is British.
I've fished in Thailand myself and really enjoyed it as a holiday and the place i went to was well run and the fish were in great condition. If you want to catch an arapaima then this is the only chance you really have as fishing for them is illegal in much of S. America.
I would return if i fancied a fairly relaxing holiday where you are going to catch a few fish. I also do plenty of proper wild fishing myself and have spent many months in India pursuing mahseer and am also off to S. America on an exploratory trip in a couple of months time.
Don't knock these fisheries until you've at least been there and tried them.

MarkTheSpark · Aug 11, 2009

Thanks for that insight, Gary. I didn't realise that arapaima are farmed in Thailand. Are they good to eat, then?
But in all honesty, I'd rather saw off my own leg than fish on circular ponds for exotic species. And that includes carping on the puddles.

coelacanth · Aug 11, 2009

Gary Newman said:
Arapaima for example are farmed in Thailand and the ones in the lakes over there have never been abroad, so you could argue that would make them native, theoretically, in the same way that anyone born in the UK is British.

Hmmm, not in any recognised biological sense...
Big difference between anthropocentric concepts of nationality and what constitutes an indigenous fish fauna.
Indonesia is another big centre for breeding these fish (including some really nasty hybrids). There are issues in Malaysia with non-native species getting into the wild, but these fisheries are far from being the main cause of this, the problems have been developing for a long time. Further East in parts of Indonesia the culprits are those imbeciles from the FAO, distributing fish like Tilapia and Snakeheads in the name of "progress" to areas where the local peoples have been managing perfectly well for thousands of years sustainably harvesting the local fish spp.

I'd be quite happy to visit one of the Thai or Malaysian fisheries myself and with a fairly clear conscience. Let's not forget that some of the supposed ultimate angling experiences are hugely environmentally irresponsible. If you've ever felt the urge to fish for Sea Trout in New Zealand, Tasmania or Patagonia, you're condoning an activity that has driven a number of other fish species to the verge of extinction (plus the small plane or helicopter you'll use to get to the fishing locations massively increases your carbon footprint). Rainbow Trout in clear Andean streams? Same applies. Black Bass, trout or carp in South Africa? Same again.

Gary Newman · Aug 13, 2009

MarkTheSpark,
Yes arapaima actually make fairly good eating, nice meaty flesh, much better than carp or catfish. Like i said it is a good holiday, in much the same way as catting on the Ebro is (coincidentally another non-indigenous fish that many of us now fish for, but in this case they have done far more damage to the environment) and i found it enjoyable, as do many others. Not everyone wants to sleep on the floor in a jungle for several weeks living off very basic food just to catch a fish - personally i love it but it can be hard work when you're walking up to 40km a day in high temperatures!

Coelacanth,
The nationality thing probably wasn't a good example, but when it comes to carp in the UK people seem to frown on anything being brought in from overseas, but any offspring of those fish are viewed (rightly or wrongly) as being English. We also now seem to accept zander and catfish as pretty much being UK species as well.
You are right about damage done fishing whilst fishing for some species, not just to the environment but the fish themselves. Catching arapaima in the wild without risk of them dying is very difficult given the blood vessel that runs down there back and is easily broken if the fish is bent during landing (hence the cages they use on fisheries in Thailand to land them safely).

Many anglers who fish abroad want a holiday somewhere warm where they are pretty much guaranteed to catch big, hard fighting fish, and this is what these waters provide.

captain carrott · Aug 13, 2009

mark you shot your argument right in the foot as soon as you mentioned arrapaima.

the reason they can breath air is because every year an arrapaima ends up trapped in a very small pool in the wild.
they are perfectly happy in extremely small pools even in deoxygenated water, evolution made them this way because they live in it in the wild.

noknot · Aug 13, 2009

captain carrott said:
mark you shot your argument right in the foot as soon as you mentioned arrapaima.

the reason they can breath air is because every year an arrapaima ends up trapped in a very small pool in the wild.
they are perfectly happy in extremely small pools even in deoxygenated water, evolution made them this way because they live in it in the wild.

Very true, as they can also drown, as they need to come to the surface to breath air.

Re: The World's Biggest Carp Caught on Rod and Line

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