Good Indication?

noknot · Sep 2, 2009

After reading the hair rig thread and the responses on there,
What do you guys think about lead set ups, and which ones do you find to be the most effective and sensitive, and which ones do you find give the greatest amount of indication from the rod end? Also how do you see the most reliable indicator set up, as one without the other to me defeats the object or detracts from the overall effectiveness, as we need effective lead set ups, plus good indication of a pick up.
Any thoughts on this?

Graham Marsden · Sep 2, 2009

No two situations are the same, especially when it comes to rivers and stillwaters, so I think you'll need to be a bit more specific.

noknot · Sep 2, 2009

Graham Marsden said:
No two situations are the same, especially when it comes to rivers and stillwaters, so I think you'll need to be a bit more specific.

OK then, lets look at stillwaters first:

Graham Marsden · Sep 2, 2009

The greatest amount of indication, on average, must be given by The Method, and I don't suppose with The Method it matters what indicator you're using. Heavy weight, very short hook length, and the fish are off like a bat out of hell when the hook pricks home.

Paul H · Sep 2, 2009

The same with any short hooklength, bolt rig style set up (chod rig for example). The indication is the rod tip slamming round or a screaming run.

On a river I find quiver tipping the most efficient indication (for ledgering), I use a running or semi fixed set-up (feeder or lead) and watch for drop backs with a bow in the line. Nothing fancy.

I'm keen to try laying on or float ledgering - particularly for perch - as I feel this will give an instant indication and help prevent any possible deep hooking.

Ray Roberts · Sep 2, 2009

Graham Marsden said:
The greatest amount of indication, on average, must be given by The Method, and I don't suppose with The Method it matters what indicator you're using. Heavy weight, very short hook length, and the fish are off like a bat out of hell when the hook pricks home.

I have been experimenting with a two hook swim feeder rig on a still water. The feeder is a large heavy maggot feeder with a tube running through it. I fish a short hooklink (3 inches) bolt style, this is baited with two or three maggots on the hook and three artificial maggots on a 1/2 inch hair. On the other side of the feeder I have a helicopter bead, held in place between a couple of float stops, this is also short and you can try a change bait or fish the same rig as the bottom hook. Bites with this set up are very positive whether runs or drop backs. I have obtained some thin tungsten rig tube and intend to use this next time to pin the rig down hard to the bottom. This rig is not a tether rig as the helicopter rig is on the mainline. I think the artificials negate the weight of the hook and the hook holds seem very good. I have been using Drenan Super Specialist hooks, I have been bending the eye forward and offseting the point slightly. Haven't lost a fish yet.

noknot · Sep 2, 2009

So from a running lead set up or a semi fixed set up, which would you find the most effective in terms of hooking, indication and screaming runs???

And also which set up do you think the Carp will have the most difficulty in dealing with or getting away with?

Stealph Viper · Sep 2, 2009

I preferred an 8" hook legth made of Kryston Silkworm Braid, that i rubbed Heavy Metal Putty over the Fibres to add a little more weight to the braid, tied to a size 8 swivel and then my lead was a Fox flat pear shaped inline lead.

The First eye on the butt end of the rod was placed directly in front of the Bite Alarm (so that it was facing the controls) to which i attached a Fox Hanger to the mainline and let it hang down about 6".

I don't know if it aided my presentation as good as other ways, but i had confidence in it, and it registered bites which resulted in me hooking in to fish.

supgen · Sep 2, 2009

I find an inline lead the most effective for the bolt-rig effect, so I tend to use these where I can, but I will use these will an swinger and a bite alarm so I can detect drop back bites.

IMO Running rigs have to be the best for indication, as no matter which way the fish turns it will (should) always tighten the line, and with a heavy lead and a heavy swinger they don't do a bad job of self-hooking fish, but I don't like to fish tightlines especially for wary carp!

sometimes neither of the set-ups will do, for example in deep silt. my fave rig for this situation would be a chod rig, but only if im sure that a long hooklength, 12-18inches with an inline lead won't cover it.

Nobby C (ACA) · Sep 2, 2009

I've had some good success on a water considered not too easy and certainly produced good results for me was a 1oz running lead, 4 inches black amnesia and a #6 longshank hook. the Amnesia creates a great curve for a 'line-aligner' effect and crude as this sounds it really has worked well for me. Horses for courses and all that.
On the river pretty much the same but with a semi-fixed lead of 2-3 oz flow permitting.
The method is also a fantastic system, and as a bonus it does give a spectacular splash down if you use a large enough lump.
Hooks by Carp r us (now ceased trading apparently) or Gamakatsu and Owner.
Slack lines and sink the line very well with running rigs in stillwater, the water pressure on the line works for you and I've never had a dodgy indication with this method, unlike a tight , set line.

noknot · Sep 2, 2009

So in effect a running rig can indeed become a " bolt " rig, but the Carp can not use the resistance of the lead to shake out the hook?

supgen · Sep 2, 2009

IMO for a running rig to work properly, as in low resistance without the fish feeling it, you need a flat calm, slack line and very very light bobbins/quiver tips and fished at close range.

any other time you might as well fish it as a bolt rig.

noknot · Sep 2, 2009

jonnie said:
IMO for a running rig to work properly, as in low resistance without the fish feeling it, you need a flat calm, slack line and very very light bobbins/quiver tips and fished at close range.

any other time you might as well fish it as a bolt rig.

A very good and thought out post, so what hooks the carp, the hookrig or the lead set up?

supgen · Sep 2, 2009

I think both, a well designed rig should cause the fish a problem in getting rid of the hook, and if the fish moves far enough hopefully the lead should drive the hook home.

Nobby C (ACA) · Sep 2, 2009

jonnie said:
IMO for a running rig to work properly, as in low resistance without the fish feeling it, you need a flat calm, slack line and very very light bobbins/quiver tips and fished at close range.

any other time you might as well fish it as a bolt rig.

What about free-lining or float fishing if distances allow?
What would be your reason, if any, to choose a running rig in the conditions you describe over these 2 options?
Perhaps a swingtip too, very sensitive.

supgen · Sep 3, 2009

Nobby C (ACA) said:
What about free-lining or float fishing if distances allow?
What would be your reason, if any, to choose a running rig in the conditions you describe over these 2 options?
Perhaps a swingtip too, very sensitive.

exactly my point mate. I think guys who use run rigs and think that they can detect a fish before the fish feels something are having a laugh!

Frothey · Sep 4, 2009

Paul Howarth said:
The same with any short hooklength, bolt rig style set up (chod rig for example). The indication is the rod tip slamming round or a screaming run.

but how many fish get away without the rod tip slamming round?

Graham Marsden · Sep 4, 2009

Frothey said:
but how many fish get away without the rod tip slamming round?

Probably the same number that get away with picking up any bait on any rig and dropping it again without you knowing a thing about it!

When fly fishing, suspending a buzzer under a bung or floating fly, only then do you realise just how many fish are mouthing the buzzer that you wouldn't have a clue are doing so without the bung to tell you. You could fish all day with a buzzer and no bung and think you haven't had a touch when really you may have had a fish mouth it every cast.

And that's with trout that are thick compared with carp and other coarse fish.

Frothey · Sep 4, 2009

for sure graham - but to suggest a bolt rig is best because every now and then it screams off is a bit deluded. carp only normally scream off when they have tried to get rid, but can't.

we we're watching trout in one of the streams taking nymphs (fished down stream) into their mouths and spitting them without a twitch on the line. even fished upstream the fish were dropping back at the same rate as the flow, so hardly any indication.

but then some days they are like piranha's..... or is that the piranha shoal we've got down here lol!

---------- Post added at 08:42 ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 ----------

Graham Marsden said:
Probably the same number that get away with picking up any bait on any rig and dropping it again without you knowing a thing about it!

another question is whether they are dropping the bait because they are suspicious of it, or whether our rigs are in the main, in-efficient and the fish aren't actually bothered by the "feel" of a bait/rig in their mouths - after all, they pick up enough twigs/stones/etc, do they just think it's rubbish....

Graham Marsden · Sep 4, 2009

It isn't always a case of them screaming off after they've tried to get rid of it though, I would imagine that most times they scream off as part of the process of trying to get rid of it, or in shear blind panic, the instant they feel something suspicious, whether that be the point of the hook or the resistance from the lead.

A case of suck the bait in - realise something is 'wrong' - bolt off.

Good Indication?

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