Are We Losing the Plot?

It's a topic we've covered before in one way or another, but I'd like to open it up again after reading an advert in an international angling magazine (more later).

There's a lot to be said for fish care and conservation, and apart from it being a sop to the antis, etc, etc, most of us take care of fish for no other reason than that we want to.

But no matter what many of us say we want to take care of fish mainly for selfish reasons, ie, so that the fish will be there to catch another day.

In other words, they're an asset.

But don't you think we've started taking things too far? Are we losing sight of the fact that we stick hooks in fish and pull them from the water against their will?

As regular as clockwork we get someone jumping into threads to whinge about tether rigs, keepnets, livebaiting, keeping fish out of the water too long for a photograph, match fishing, commercial fisheries, stillwater barbel......ad nauseum. You can probably think of a hundred more.

I don't know of any other country's anglers who have such a contradictory, oxymoronic, and paradoxical attitude to fishing as we have. On one hand we want to treat fish like warm puppies and on the other hand slate any anti that uses the same comparison. We want to ram cold steel into a fish's mouth and then lay it on a wet cushion as they gasp.

And then return them so that we can do it all over again.

The following are words I've taken from a Mustad advert for hooks, an advert that appeared in the July 2009 issue of the trade magazine 'Angling International'.

SLOW DEATH

New

Slow Death Hooks - it's how the pro's roll

Then follows a description of the hooks and how they work.

Has anyone seen this ad in a UK mag, and do you think you're likely to?

I doubt it.

I'm not saying I approve of the ad; far from it, but it's a damn good example of how far apart we are from the rest of the world.

Of the two, 'our' stance and 'their' stance I'd rather have ours. Ideally though, and as always, there is a middle ground and I think we should start veering off towards it by trying not to knock every mortal thing we read about that can be found in the 'Conservationist's Handbook of Angler's Bad Practices'.

What do you think?

Here's the full page ad:

I think Graham, that as long as we describe the pitfuls of certain methods of fishing to the new, or the uninitiated to certain sections of our sport/pastime/love, (without preaching) then our approach to angling is generally good.

I'm personally of a view that writers, such as yourself for instance ,have a duty, not just to explain the tackle they use BUT, when that specific piece of tackle may not be wise to use.

It only needs a paragraph or even a few lines

I agree Fred. But few people do 'describe the pitfalls' without preaching, and it's the holier than thou and the hypocritical aspect of the whole business that aggravates me.

Good job they are in the minority, I suppose.

Too right, yes.

I think most things are ok for fish welfare in our country with unhooking mats, quality keepnets, etc, and yes, we are doing it mainly for selfish reasons, protecting assets ie specimen fish.

The thing about that advert, if used in our country, is that all the antis would jump on it straight away. In most country's, there would still be no problem, but in this country, with this government, pandering to tiny minorities, tree huggers, do gooders etc, angling would probably be banned, just like playing conkers in schools, singing bah bah black sheep.....oh this could go on forever! Mind you, this government would probably cock banning angling up too.

The thing that bugs me on these forums the most is those who say that we shouldn't use keepnets, livebait, barbed hooks and so on. The livebait one is my favourite, sticking hooks in a fish is just that, whether it's to reel them in or to catch a pike. End of.
I'm not sure whether these folks actually believe what they are saying, or are looking for slaps on the back from people for spotting something that's they consider 'cruel' In fact I'm sure that they trawl these forums looking for a 'loop rig' or somebody using a keepnet, just for another few pats on their backs.
Tackle companies have jumped in to make money out of these folks. Antisceptic for hook holds, unhooking mats that you could go swimming in, leads that pop off every time you get a bite, it's all going a bit too far in my opinion.
Well I'll give you my views. These people are more likely to get angling banned than any antis, just by chipping away at parts of our sport that have been practiced almost since angling began. No keepnets, barbed hooks, certain rigs, where will it end?

Michael Townsend 3 said:

it's all going a bit too far in my opinion. Well I'll give you my views. These people are more likely to get angling banned than any antis, just by chipping away at parts of our sport that have been practiced almost since angling began. No keepnets, barbed hooks, certain rigs, where will it end?

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly.

What is it in the ad that you don't approve of then Graham? The name used? Slow Death?
I can't see anything wrong with it really - we used to talk about a salmon rod having the ability to 'kill' a fish, or about this or that 'killer' method etc, it's just semantics.
I hate the Holier than thou set too though. And not just in angling!

What's in a word? We've got to remember that (nearly) everywhere else in the world people fish for food not just for sport. Catching a fish in these countries means that the fish dies. This is the same with any well managed put and take trout fishery in the UK.

OK so the choice of words in the ad is unfortunate in the politically correct UK, but it only means that it is an effective fish catcher at slow speed, not that it condemns a fish to a slow death. The speed or otherwise of the fishes death rests entirely within the control of the angler - as it should do.

Sean Meeghan said:

What's in a word?

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Exactly, for starters; take a look at some of the daft names that manufacturers give to their rods and poles these days: Carp Cruncher, Margin Mauler etc., not much difference in my opinion.

We anglers are a totally contrary bunch are we not?

Graham Marsden said:

But don't you think we've started taking things too far? Are we losing sight of the fact that we stick hooks in fish and pull them from the water against their will?

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It is what we do with them fish once we have removed them from the water that is just as important, Unhooking mats in my opinion are a good thing especially if you cannot unhook the fish in the net safely or even better in the water itself.
It teaches Anglers to respect their catch and to handle them with as much care as possible.

Progress cannot be a bad thing in Angling (Can It?)

I don't understand the ban on live bait, unless it was to stop anglers catching their live bait from one Pool or River and using them in another.

I use a keepnet a lot when fishing, but i am always aware of the depth of water it is in, how much fish gets put in to it, the size of the fish being put in to it, the weather conditions etc, but, i have seen anglers struggling to lift their keepnets out of the water because they only had one keepnet.

I don't think it is the tools we Anglers use that cause all the fuss, but, how we Anglers use them tools that should be of concern.

As for using cold steel hooks to haul fish out of the water against their will, is their another way to fish in our chosen sport that is a better alternative ?

As for Antiseptics for applying to a fishes cuts, it isn't law, you don't have to use it, but, if it does help the fish to heal and recover quicker, it can't be a bad thing, can it?

When i was a child, and fishing the Lochs, Rivers and Seas of the West Coast of Scotland, everything i caught got clunked over the heed, whether we ate it or not, now i am just older and wiser.

Fred Bonney said:

Good job they are in the minority, I suppose.

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Trouble is Fred, they use a loud voice and are relentless with it.

I'm pretty tolerent of other's fishing methods providing they have assessed what they are using to be capable of hooking and landing a fish reasonably quickly (not too quick, mind) and returned in good health. What gets me are the hypocrites who scandalise some anglers for, what in their eyes is, bad behaviour and yet practice some weird methods themselves.

I saw the advert Graham speaks of and thought myself it was a little gross, but the main market for those hooks is Good 'ol USA and their approach is very different. As you know, I'm not keen on tackle naming conventions here at times, such as "Bully Boy" tops, or the "Carp Destroyer" for a pole. It does project the wrong image, but providing we are made aware, like you and GM says, of the pitfalls then all well and good.

I'm not sure where we're going with this discussion. Other countries certainly differ in their attitudes. I remember watching TV in the US one Saturday morning to see Jimmy Houston demonstrating bow-and-arrow fishing for catfish (? I think, can't recall for sure). Can you imagine that on TV here?!

Our waters are probably under more angling pressure than most countries, with our high population density and the popularity of angling as a recreation. Given that pressure, it behooves us as anglers to protect our stocks by careful and respectful treatment. However, I agree that the antiseptic/unhooking mat/no livebait/etc has achieved a level of orthodoxy and received wisdom that's difficult to challenge, and is also affecting the way we fish. My club requires me to use an unhooking mat: in a punt when catching tench or pike, it makes sense. But when I'm stalking 3lb chub along a mile of small stream with great cushions of grass along the bank to lay my landing net on?

I think livebait comes to the heart of the matter: yes, I'm prepared to hook a live fish and use it as bait (if only my club would let me). What's the difference between a fish, a worm and maggot? All, by their movements when impaled, clearly display pain or an equivalent sensation. In fact, the fish seems least disturbed by it. A worm goes crazy.

So yes, I think we're losing the plot, or maybe the plot's changed and people who think like me reading an old edition!

There is always some aspect of angling that anglers (are they really anglers?) rear up at like you say Graham, who needs anti's when a percentage of 'anglers' do the fingerpointing for them. I just don't understand some the attitudes of posters on this forum alone, those who constantly have a knock at match anglers, commercials, keepnets to name but three and it isn't that long since some were knocking the loop rig and I strongly suspect they don't have any experience of it to warrant their criticism, it looks wrong so therefore it is wrong.

Maybe its a sign of the times, the PC attitudes that they criticise one minute yet exhibit themselves in their own attitudes and I think 'older anglers' who have learned and experienced just about everything in angling have long since come to terms with and accept as normal and acceptable. Most anglers make mistakes at one time or another and that mistake may result in a fish dying, pushing a disgorger too deep, dropping a fish or squeezing a fish too hard, it happens, but its not the anglers intention, no angler sets out to harm a fish surely but according to some critics on here they most certainly do.

From: Slow Death Hooks

MUSTAD NEWS - SLOW DEATH HOOKS



A PERSPECTIVE ON PERFECTION.
By Gary Parsons
National Freshwater Fishing Hall of Fame Legendary Angler


In the mid-90s a close group of walleye pros were generating tremendous results with a new technique that added incredible action to live-bait presentations by bending hooks in a certain fashion. I knew it was something special, but because I couldn’t master the precise hook bend, I was getting really inconsistent results. Working with the mustad product development team, Keith and I spent countless hours testing hook bends until we perfected a hook design that anybody could rig effectively.

Esox Angler Magazine

The Next Bite - Esox Angler - Home Page

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Perhaps "slow death" has a more innocuous meaning in Norwegian and Mustad just erm "lost something in the translation"?


I can't see how sales for this hook design would suffer from a more realistic product name.

Do Mustad have this item listed for UK sale by the way?

Perhaps if they called it the "Worm Spinner Method" hook, that would work. So long as it has "Method" in it's name, or "Bagging", or "Carp" so how about "Spinning Worm, Carp Bagging Method Hook"?



I'm actually thinking, I'll give them a go now. That's me though, always ready to try something new.

How about the Mustad Mystery Hook.

What is it good for we hear you cry ?

What ever you want it to be good for, you lot know best.

That should market it to every body reasonably well.

It would sell like hot cakes if they did a Spade End version :wh

Wolfman Woody said:

I'm actually thinking, I'll give them a go now. That's me though, always ready to try something new.

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It's not that new Jeff, just a variation on the old Victorian wobbling theme. It's something similar to what I've been doing for perch for the last few years anyway, but I fish it from the bank, not from a boat. Thread a large lobworm onto a big single; I use an Owner 1/0 catfish hook (coz I have lots) with half the worm or more as a tail. For casting weight use a small drilled bullet sitting right on the hook-knot. Cast out and bounce the bullet on the bottom, making the lobworm hop along the bottom. It's a very mobile form of fishing and lethal for perch. Jacks like to grab it in the margins too so use some wire if you want.

This is a jumble of thoughts, I ain't articulate or well educated so it's easier to just spew it out that try and put it into some sort of coherent argument.

We (all of us) exploit everything we can. We eat animals, bully those that we can, and invade countries because they have something we want or have a different belief.

It's only recently that in the UK we have stopped eating coarse fish. Taking Xplorer's comment on the maggot and worm (I had never thought of it before) to it's logical conclusion then bleaching the toilet, washing your hands are also wrong because you are harming living things.

I think I shall carry on fishing, harm the fish as little as possible (because I want to catch it again next week, bigger) but will use the most effective, club rule allowed, method.

When we stop killing and maiming each other then i will start thinking about other harms that we might be doing.

In summary, yes we are loosing the plot but are we only loosing it because we care? Blimey it's all to much for a simple soul like me.

I think one of the biggest problems "the sport" faces is that the majority of participants haven't lost the plot because they haven't yet worked out what the plot is ! It staggers me how ill informed [and ill behaved ] some anglers are and it is those people that unwittingly add fuel to the antis fire. I regret to say that the majority of the non angling public will only come across anglers who I would be seriously concerned about being associated with. That sounds terribly pompous but you know what i mean.As in everything there are a lot of idiots out there.

On FM eg you have ON THE WHOLE a bunch of thinking,interested,well informed & concerned anglers.We know the dangers and try in our own way to do what we can to mitigate them. I'm not a campaigner...I'm just not... but I do listen to and think about what people like eg Graham] has to say...because I'm bright enough to recognise that I would do well to listen to people who are more experienced & successful anglers than I will ever be. I had not considered the dangers of a tether rig until it was pointed out..I dont livebait because I've thought about it and decided its not for me...and I carry an unhooking mat everywhere but haven't used a keepnet for years. Little things but its made me a more responsible angler and that can only be good..

We are preaching to the converted on here. How you reach the rest is what really bothers me....and the general public who,no matter what we might say, see angling in very simple terms. People sticking hooks in a living creature for fun. In that respect how we "present" ourselves does matter.

Its not dissimilar to my view of golf which I have no interest in whatsoever.Its people knocking a ball into a hole with a stick & you wont make me think of it any other way because I'm just not interested. That I think is our greatest challenge...not whether we can "win" a reasoned debate but the apathetic indifference of the majority of both anglers and non-anglers. Joe Public who doesn't fish couldn't care less whether we are allowed to.

I dont know what the answer is,if indeed there is one. I regret to say that I think we've had it and its only a question of when.I dont think it will be soon but I do think its coming.