Natural Line Aligner!

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Stuart Dennis

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I got into conversation lately about how a rig turns to catch the carps mouth if set-up correctly. We were talking about the knotless knot and how it acts as a natural line-aligner. This certainly is the case in my opinion. In chatting further, we discussed the palm test in which you run the rig back across your palm and 9/10 you can watch the rig turn inwards and catch your skin thus proving that potentially the rig/natural line aligner will replicate this movement when sucked up by a carp. Since I’m moving back towards the knotless knot for bottom baits, I’ve been rigorously testing the theory and confirm the above. However, If you then test the same theory but put you’re baits on and then run this across your palm or the side of you’re hand the whole process breaks down. Instead of 9/10 times it taking hold, it’s more like 2/10. So what’s the story here forum? Can this ever be overcome?
 
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Cakey

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Arh so you wouldnt wait till wednesday.
The difference is the blow back !
 
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The Monk

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Excuse my ignorance Stuart but I've never really got my head around this palm test business, we had it with the bent hook rig? is this done under water and of course a palm is of greater monecular structure than that of a fishes mouth of course, with muscle contraction etc, gravitation lover and slower in the aquatic environment?

Interesting on the knotless knot. I did have problems with this a few years ago when Ghost hit the market, I was getting break offs at the hook, on microscopy analysis I discovered that the material was actually fracturing around the no-knot area as it went over the eye, it showed a flattening effect then fractured and broke, I expect modern materials have eliviated this problem though? I contacted the manufacturers at the time but they didnt understand what I was talking about really, I probably didnt explain myself properly!
 
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Stuart Dennis

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Certainly makes sense to me monk. Cakey, lets have a comprehensive explanation then matey please.
 
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Cakey

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mr carp trys to blow bait out it leaves hook behind, when you do palm test bait still hanging behind hook.
So if you want to do test with bait on YOU CANT.
 
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andrew jackson

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Monk presume that problem has been eleviated at your peril mate. A guy turned up at my house the other week with a failed rig to look at, same old problem I am afraid, the pinch on the eye cutting through the hook length. I dont tend to use mono for hooklengths but if I did, I would sleve off the eye with shrink tube before I tied the knot.
 
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Dave Rothery

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tie a blow back stu, and pull the rig by the bait in the "blown back" position - i still dont think rig/hooklengths react anything like we think underwater.IMO the palm test only really works if the fish backs off slowly with the bait in their mouth.
 
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Ian Grant

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I've thought about that the same as you Stu,
i came to the conclusion after thinking about it, that the back of your hand isn't really reresentative of a carps mouth and so is not a fair demonstation of the knots effectiveness so i tried it trying to imitate the inside of a carps mouth as best i could, the bottom of a carps mouth is concaved and rises to meet the inner edge of the lip as it then rolls over to the outside of the lip, so i tried copying that
(roughly) with my hand , With your thumb and forefinger facing you,and your palm facing upwards , form a 'U' with your forefinger and thumb, now place a knotless knotted hook, boilie and all, into the palm of your hand , and drag it towards you, you'll find it's damn near impossible for the hook to get over the lip of the 'U' which roughly represents the lip of the carp
and in my opinion vindicates the effectivness of the knotless knot as an extremly effective line aligner. give it a go and see for yourself.
 
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Ian Grant

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Sorry i've jumped the gun saying the back of your hand which is how i've seen many people perform the test, but shaping your hand to mimick roughly the shape of the carps mouth, will definatly prove it's effectiveness over normal knots.
 
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The Monk

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I've got a really stupid idea here folks, could we adapt low water salmon hooks, say put a blob of solder on the end and say, call them Jack Hiltons, would the knotless knot work on them?
 
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The Monk

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I'm genuinly lost on some of the moren thinking on this, and really do consider many of you younger guys take the mecanics of the sport a lot further than we did, however sometimes I think you may miss some of the basic mechanistic principles, please slag me off if I'm wrong, I'm only an old doddery (not as old as Ron and Graham though I would pint out)(God their really old)?
 
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Stuart Dennis

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Ian, that’s superb mate. Never thought of it like that. OK girls and boys you heard it here first. Tim Paisley states he invented the palm test, but I reckon Ian’s testing theory takes the biscuit! I'll be trying that Ian and whenever I show it or demonstrate it to anyone from here onwards then I'll be saying, why don't you try the ‘Grant Test’.

By the way Cakey, looks like you can!
 
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Stuart Dennis

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Monk, its about applying the brain and thats it, whetehr old or young, apply the brain and all will reveal itself. There is as much learnt from the young as there is from the old.
 
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The Monk

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Probably Stuart, although I think you younger guys are probably a lot sharper than us old fossils, did me old mate "Parsnip the White" really invent the palm test, that does surprise me?
 
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Cakey

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Sorry Stu I disagree because now you have forgotten lip protrusion.
 
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Dave Rothery

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Didn't he nick (well adapt) it from nashy? nothing new there then!
 
Murray Rogers

Murray Rogers

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Stu, how about wrapping a heavy amount of lead aound the hook?(Like the Barbel Boys)
Forget the bait, it's only there as a decoy to fool them into taking in the hook at the same time. The trick is to have them spit out the bait and leave the hook behind. Enough weight on the hook should leave it in the bottom lip.

READY TO BE SHOT DOWN IN FLAMES!!!!!!!!
 
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Ian Grant

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Murray,i reckon that would work there's more
than one way of skinning a cat as they say!
Monk , it only looks complicated in words, i could "SAY what i meant in 5 seconds.
Stu, Don't you dare!!
 
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Carp Angler

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Murray,
that's the reason that pop-ups are such an efficient hooker, the weight, combined with good hook positioning.
The weight makes sure the hook drops into the bottom lip.

Monk,
flouro always flattens and weaken witha knotless where it comes through the eye.

See my previous posts on here (to Cakey I believe) about them only being good for one fish due to this reason.
 
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Dave Rothery

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you should always wrap the line clockwise along the shank (looking down the hook from eye to point) as the eye is always formed with the eye bent to the right on the hooks i've seen, so the line can get trapped/damaged in a poorly closed eye if wrapped anti clockwise. does that make sense?
 
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