Comment on the Beginners and Improvers Section from Vince Battams

The following post has been deleted from the new 'Beginners and Improvers' section. I deleted it because it was very likely going to deter beginners from posting to that new section. I'm re-posting it here in the interests of free speech.

Vince Battams said: ?Has this (the new Beginners and Improvers section) been set up because the clicky fraternity do not want the lesser knowns and lesser anglers in their forums?
I cannot see the reason for this forum as the same questions could have been asked within their respective forums and still got the same if not more views, but then again with angling as a whole we cannot seem to stay under one umbrella.
Monthy Python sketch comes to mind "i'm smaller than both of them i know my place"

Sorry it was two ronnies with John Cleese before those that know more spout off?

Birds Nest replied: ?What leads you to make such a comment Vince? From what I can see you've always had healthy answers to your questions...?

The 'Beginners and Improvers' forum was started for exactly the reasons it says on the label and NOT because I've been placed under any pressure from a 'clicky' or any other kind of fraternity. Whilst I will listen to suggestions (as I did in this instance from Mick Fleet) I'm quite capable of making my own mind up about what should and should not be within the forums.

The main reason for the new Beginners and Improvers section is for exactly the opposite reasons to what Vince Battams is suggesting. It is to encourage beginners and improvers to ask basic questions, any questions, in a section where they know they have been invited to post and where they need not feel they are intruding.

We more experienced anglers KNOW they are not intruding by posting to any of the other sections, but by having their own section it should make it less of an ordeal - as it can be for new posters and beginners.

What concerns me most, however, is that someone should suggest that there is a clique on the FM forum that does not allow entry to beginners. I'm also concerned that someone thinks I am dictated to by a clique.

I see FM as a close-knit family of fishing friends. That's what I strive for. And I have seen no evidence of anyone, and certainly not from the regulars, disacouraging anyone else from joining that family. I wouldn't have it.

I can understand a newcomer to FM being a bit put off by the obvious camaraderie of many of our members on here, but once they dip a toe in the water they are invariably given a very warm welcome. Unless, of course, they've posted something inflammatory that asks for a different reponse.

There are no beginners and improvers that I know of who have come onto this forum and not being helped as much as possible.

The new section is simply designed to make it easier for them.

Comment from Eric Hayes:
"I don`t want to upset the apple cart but I think the people that frequent this sight do a good job of answering questions from beginners in the other category`s, (I know they have answered my queries in the past with out much trouble)I can`t see the point of another. I Just think people who are new to the site or the sport may feel a bit alienated. I could understand if it was a specialist category like Tench, Roach, Barbel or one for the match angler but sorry not beginners."

Eric, if it turns out that you're right and beginners don't use the section, then it will be deleted. You may well be right, but Vince is wrong in suggesting that the section was introduced because I was pressured into it by a clique.

I dont think that the new section would stop people "intruding" on the "cliques" postings anyway. If "the clique" had that much editorial power they would just get the moderators to delete the posts! Like Graham, i think it might encourage people who wouldn't normally post a "simple" question because they might worry about looking silly. it would also help those who are answering the post as they will then know they aren't "experienced" anglers, and can tailor the advice. Like eric, i hope its not necessary, and people will realise they can get a (sometimes) sensible, but mainly helpful answer on the dedicated forums

What a sad view you have Vince!

I can only think that (to vince's defence) sometimes some of the replies can be "a little robust"(!) to questions like "whats the best bait/rod/line to catch a 40lb carp/30lb pike/double figure barbel" etc when the poster has asked it in all innocence (and who can blame them when you look at the mags?) - and i've definately been guilty of that in the past! but its not meant in a nasty way, your just trying to get them to see that theres more to fishing than throwing money at tackle. at least if they post in a "beginners" section, you know they're much more likely to be genuine

Dave, what you've said is EXACTLY the reason why the new section could be a good thing. The replies should be less 'robust' when posted to the new section when obviously coming from a beginner. I think some of the robust answers in the past have been due to the more experienced angler thinking the poster may have been taking the p*ss.

I've been fishing for more than thirty years, and I'm still a beginner!
Just about every time I log on here and read the articles and threads I learn something new, or realise that something I thought of as gospel is a load of bo!!ox.
For what it's worth, I think the Beginners section is a good idea - but I do think Graham and the other mods will need to keep a close eye on it. If the idea of the new section is to prompt newcomers (and the rest) to post what might be seen as naive questions to the more experienced of us, it is vitally important that those who reply realise this is a BEGINNERS section, and don't use a smug and sneery tone.

Someone a lot smarter than me once said "there are no stupid questions, only stupid people who don't ask".

If you don't ask you won't learn, and with the I'm all right Jack attitude prevalent among a lot of anglers this site is a goldmine of, normally, sound and valuable advice.

So there!!!

"If you don't ask you won't learn, and with the I'm all right Jack attitude prevalent among a lot of anglers this site is a goldmine of, normally, sound and valuable advice."

Sorry, that sounds a bit like I'm criticising the users of this site, it's meant to be aimed at the ones on the bank who reject approaches from newbies for advice, as if their knowledge was state secret.

If anyone sees a reply to a beginner in a smug and sneery tone, or derogatory in any way, just click the red moderator button and report it.

I can't see how anyone could have a problem with setting this up.

I've learned loads from people both on this site and people I've ended up meeting and becoming mates with as a result of it.

With several thousand members and several hundrted active posters, it's a big clique........

For what it's worth,my view is that the beginners and improvers amongst us would find this very welcome.
There have been many times when I'd wished I had asked a certain question, after responses had been received,I realised I didn't know I needed to ask the question!
A classic example is Rodney Wrest's answer on dead maggots,excellent stuff.

You get all sorts on a website like this, from beginners to experts. Most of the beginners are 'lurkers'. They come onto the forum, look around, read the threads and in most cases don't feel inclined to post anything for fear of looking foolish.
A well known predator website set up a beginners forum which was a disaster from word 'go'. The more experienced pikers declined to offer advise because I suspect they did not want to be publically abused for giving away some highly secret advice or naming this or that highly secret water (including such highly secret venues as Windermere, Loch Lomond and the Norfolk Broads). Others were told that 'it took 20 years to learn all of this why should I tell you in 20 seconds, go and work it out for yourself' Some were even ticked off for spelling mistakes and the occasional dodgy grammar. Sadly it still happens. I hope this new initiative results in more 'lurkers' becoming 'posters'. So if you are a 'lurker' itching to become a 'poster' put your fingers on the keyboard and lets hear from you, either on the beginners forum or the forum that caters for your specialist interest. You don't need all the latest gear, you can fish for most species with a limited budget and you'll usually get good advice about what to buy and what not to buy, even where to fish, you might even find someone in your neck of the woods who'll take you down to the river and show you how it's done and if you can't spell for toffee, wel woo kares ?

Well said Gerry.

Yes, well said mate. We were all beginners at one time.

I agree with a lot of what has been said and I do hope it takes off and get`s one or two of the more shy members contributing to the forums. My post was in no way intended as a criticism just my own observation. At the end of the day it won`t do any harm, and it may add another dimension to what is already in my opinion one of the best general fishing sites on the net.
When I first found this site the thing that struck me most was the friendly and in most cases helpfulness of the members, and I didn`t find a clique, although you can get a bit of a ribbing from time to time, but that will happen on any forum regardless. Graham your doing a good job mate and it shows you listen to people, with your open attitude the site can only get better.

I'm not sure who this 'clique' might be.

Personally, I initially thought that the new section was a bad idea, thinking it would dilute the input to the other sections of the forum.
I've seen some very basic questions put to the specific forums and they generally get very respectful and informative answers.

Now having seen Graham's reasoning I can appreciate why he's done it, hopefully the new section will help people to get answers that they may have been reticent to post.

As for deleting innapropriate posts, as the only other moderator on this site, the only posts I've ever deleted have been either libelous or have contained too many expletives.
If people feel compelled to reply in a certain way, then who am I to judge whether that reply is appropriate?
If that was the case and only appropriate or nice replies were allowed, then the majority of my own and all of Monks posts wouldn't see the light of day.

"the majority of my own and all of Monks posts wouldn't dee? the light of day"
Wadya expect from Scummers n Mancs?