Fish feel pain Breaking news

A news report on GMTV this morning says that fish DO FEEL PAIN.
And The Antis and some scientists have called for a Ban on Angling.

Trout Have Been Injected with Bee Venom around the mouth and Acid.
Their behaviour was then studied.

No mention of the previouse tests saying that fish feel no pain was mentioned.

Nodoubt the Antis will Revel in this News. Im concerned that the Fish were Injected with Substances that we all Know Cause pain. Also They Are Concerned about the fishes mental state and welfare after being caught.

What a load of crap. How many of us tip our hooks with bee venom !!!!!

This is exactly it. The venom would have caused a reaction, certainly, but like when you get stung, the venom causes many chemical imbalances.

The research is flawed in that it is using completely the wrong mode of measure.

All the tests show is that the fish react to bee venom. No more No less.

As we all know some humans can react fatally to insect venom.

No mention was made to the earlier tests released within the last few months that showed that fish lack the ability to feel pain as you or i would know it.

Let's not forget that if it wasnt for anglers, the lakes and rivers of this country would probably all be cess pools by now, barren of all bloody fish and wild life.

I know it's idiotic what has been said and the way it's been portrayed, but isn' tthis just that the "anti's" need in the way of ammunition to get the government to listen to them.

Could this be the foot in the door that they have been after?

Absolutely Ryan (re your last point). For the life of me I cannot understand why the people who get onto TV to defend angling never make this point! Instead they try and argue the science and never come over that well. What about Gary's "campaign" re the Ribble? Where would that get if people didn't fish?

Today it was someone from Countryside Alliance. He did finish well though.

Complete toot.

I think that when ever tests like this are published we need to highlight the flaws in the findings and quote previous publications and findings to the contrary.

Who, exactly, we quote to I dont know, any Ideas??

Its sure as hell gmtv won't listen!

I would like to know if a complaint could be made to the press complaints commision, on the grounds that all the tests prove is that fish react to bee venom, yet a so called serious news program states that it is now proved that fish feel pain.

Funny enough, I dont remember gmtv doing a piece on the reort saying that fish dont feel pain.

Good point Ryan.
Well the BBC is in on the act as well,as usual. Every half hour news bulleting on radio 2 this morning, from at least 8o'clock, has mentioned it.
At 10o'clock,there was an animal theologian,whatever that is,spouting off,about cruelty to sentiant species,I didn't catch the name of the angling writer who responded,funny thing is I can't think what his response was either!
Before posting this I waited for the 11o'clock,it was mentioned again,but no spokesmen,apart from a statement that anglers have said other studies have contradicted this one.

This presents a golden opportunity for someone such as Chris Tarrant to explain our side of things.
In fact I'm going to phone them right now.

I've just heard someone say "what about the poor Bee that had to die for it's venom".

On a serious note though, I think GMTV should at least, report on previous findings that state fish do not feel pain and give the Angling bodies air time to defend our right to fish.

Didnt see it myself but cant understand how they relate sticking bee venom and acid into a fishes face , with fish feeling pain from fishing.In my view fish probably do feel something from hook`s ect cant see how they wouldnt but (i might be wrong on this) its how that something is translated into a sensation in the brain that causes "pain".Its only becuase of the size and make up of our brain that makes "pain" such an unpleasant sesnsation.
Saying that i still cant get my head around the right`s and wrong`s of livebaiting with course fish,with the increase in catfish fishing (a fish id like to catch myself) ive read a few articles on bait`s ect and was shocked to read then see small carp and tench being used as live bait`s,
Matt hayes was on tv other night in france using live tench for cat`s im sure showing this on gmtv would of done far more damage!!
The way its going in this country unless we do somthing its going to get harder to enjoy our sport/past time ,ive only just got back into fishing this year and have been really pleased with the moves to improve fish welfare(barbless hooks,unhooking mats,safty rigs,votes in favour of keeping close season on rivers)
MY fear is that as always the anti`s will overlook the good thing`s we do and latch onto something like the live bait debate to get us all banned,then without the rod licence revenues what would happen to our river`s ect there wouldnt be any money for welfare or bailiffs and without bailiffs im sure people would still fish as there wouldnt be anyone to stop them and with no one to police there methods god only knows what people wold use(20 hook hairigged setlines for carp maybe?)
sorry rant over

I've just phoned the A-C-A for their reaction.
The woman I spoke to hadn't seen or heard of the story so I explained to her what it was all about etc.
I said to her that it would be an ideal opportunity for Chris Tarrant to put our side of the story across to the public.

She then said that I'd really need to speak to Bob James, but that I couldn't because he's out of the country at present.

She promised that someone would call me back later this week though.

I'll keep you posted.

There's a 'phone in on this report on Jeremy Vines radio 2 show from 12o'clock,or email vines@bbc.co.uk I have

Sorry, should be vine@bbc.co.uk

This study does, indeed, seem seriously flawed, as bee venom is a complex mix of constituents that affect different parts of the body in various ways, as the following text ("borrowed" from a Web site) shows (my emphasis added):

"Bee venom is hemorrhagic, differing from snake (viper) venom, which is a coagulant. As well as containing: apamine, melittin, phospholipase, hyaluronidase, which have the opposing action of <b>inhibiting the nervous system<b>, and <b>stimulating the heart and the adrenal glands<b>; the venom also contains the mineral substances, volatile organic acids, formic acid, hydrochloric acid, ortho-phosphoric acid. Also present are some <b>antibiotics<b>, an enzyme ? phospholipase A, as well as two amino acids rich in sulphur methionine and cystine. Sulphur is the main element in inducing the release of cortisol from the adrenal glands, and in protecting the body against infections."

My own observations (far from scientific, I concede) suggest that fish hooked in the mouth do not feel pain in the same way we do. My reason for stating this is that I have caught carp from virtually unfished waters (and hence fish that are unlikely to have been caught before) and almost without exception they have hardly reacted to the hook going home. They tend to mill around, pulling against the tension of the line, but showing no "fight or flight" reaction that might be expected if the hook itself had induced pain. I do find, however, that they tend to go beserk as the net touches them or as they are lifted from the water. In contrast, fish I have caught from more pressured waters tend to react immediately to a hook, charging off in a panic reaction.

I would contend that this suggests that the reaction to the hook going home is a learned response, rather than a reaction to pain -- fish that have been caught before "know" what is going to happen to them. I'm am not sure that this is an entirely positive message -- the psychological cruelty issue might be an issue of concern.

Enough of this blethering.

I should be interested in other's views on this and if they have had similar experiences.

I've responded to the BBC saying if this Research Facility wants to do some good and have some really decent publicity - ask them to research a way of controlling the rat population. Far more beneficial to the whole country.

Damn good point!!

Some years ago I lodged a hook in my tongue. I was holding a hooklink in my mouth and, inadvertently, kicked the rod over. Silly think to do I know. I couldn't get the hook out myself, even using pliers, so I had to go to the A & E department at the hospital to have the hook removed. It didn't hurt at all. Bee stings, and wasp stings for that matter, are an entirely different matter. They are very painful! The point I am making is that if I felt no pain from the hook, surely the same would apply to a fish. If the fish felt pain this must have been from the venom. I know nothing about science but I don't think it needs a genius to work this out.

Fred, just a point about your 'animal theologian '. As part of my OU philosophy course this year I am studying animal rights.The question of sentience in animals has come up a few times and if the 'expert' you quoted has defined fish as sentient then he is going against the main body of current and past thinking on this subject.Current definitions of sentience include such things as self-awareness and an ability to communicate.I'd like to see anyone prove that fish posess either of these qualities.As previous posts have said, the research in question is deeply flawed and scientifically inconclusive. It just suggests to me that the media are, as always, more interested in sensationalism than accuracy and balanced journalism.

Phil, you say "It just suggests to me that the media are, as always, more interested in sensationalism than accuracy and balanced journalism."

I agree with that statement, the trouble is that joe public won't see it it like that.

Where are all those angling and TV celebrities who can help to put our case across properly?

Sorry I've just caught up with this. So these people injected fish in the mouth with various nasty things? But surely if we takling about angling wouldn't the "damage" done only be the same as the needle without the nasties?

Just another point, I suppose the anti's will love this, but I thought they were against tests on animals. The people who carried out the tests are much more cruel than any angler.