Barbel,a threat to silver fish?

F

Fred Bonney

Guest
I've just been given a copy of May's
matchfishing mag.
Keith Arthur writes "Many anglers are now wondering if they(Cormorants)should shoulder all the blame.Salmon anglers fought to keep barbel out of their rivers because of the damage they do to spawning beds".
Perhaps I should add,that this was prompted by a conversation he had in 1982 with Joe Brennan, who apparently said"If there was a poison that selectively killed Barbel...he'd tip a barrel-ful in the Trent at Stoke" because "they have killed the Severn and they will kill the Trent"

He goes on to hint that compared to 20 years ago the Wye Salmon population and the Warwickshire Avon reduced Dace populations, have been affected by the increase in Barbel numbers.
Finally he says "Lets work on the Cormorant threat by campaining for a cull and then allow our rivers to re-establish their NATIVE species.Preferably without whiskers."

Any thoughts ???
Steps back from the blue touch paper...Ron?
 
GrahamM

GrahamM

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Keith is right about what he says about barbel. I agree with him 100%. It's also true to say that carp have destroyed the native species of many stillwaters.

But the truth is that there are too many anglers like me who love barbel and carp fishing and would fight any plan to destroy them.

What should happen is that we should learn to live with what we already have, but not allow any more rivers and lakes to be seeded with species they don't already hold.

That will never happen, but it's a good thought.
 
J

john conway

Guest
We’ve got to be a bit careful on this one, there must be other species which eat the eggs of fish, if the barbel are dominant then there must be a decline in other bottom feeding fish as well? There is no doubt that introducing a new species to a river will upset the balance. Re barbel and game fish, how do the game fish survive in the rivers that have always had an indigenous stock of barble? My own personal opinion is it’s more likely to be mans pissing about with the rivers that causes the greatest reductions in fish stocks. I’ve no facts to back this up, it’s just a gut feeling. Like Graham I’d hate to see a cull of barbel.
 
W

Wag

Guest
To quote John:
"My own personal opinion is it?s more likely to be mans pissing about with the rivers"

and pissing IN them, indirectly.

Hormones!
 
D

Dave Slater

Guest
From a purely selfish point of view I would be happy to see less barbel. Firstly it would be be better for the chub fishing and secondly it would mean less carp anglers coming onto the rivers. Both big plusses in my opinion.
 
R

Ron Clay

Guest
In the case of the Trent, barbel are a natural indigenous species, they were and they always will be. All rivers which flowed easterly out of England contained the barbel.

They also contained the roach and others in the family of cyprinids. The Trent may have been named hundreds of years ago for the fact that it contained 30 species of fish! (Trent in French means 30)

Even today, the Trent contains roach in good numbers. However too many anglers are simply too lazy to seek them out.

I get very annoyed with anglers who claim that this river is only a shadow of what it used to be.

This is utter codswallop.

My friend Mick Lomas who has spent virtually a lifetime fishing this river, can tell you of some superb catches of roach, dace, bream, chub and even grayling, taken in recent times. The truth about the Trent is that it can take years for an angler to get the best out of it.

A long apprenticeship is necessary. One has to learn to tune in to this fabulous river. The vast majority of anglers who fish this river for the first time blank. and then they condemn it out of hand.

You are doing well if you get one pull in your first 30 visits to this river. After 50 visits you may get your first fish. After that you will enjoy some of the finest angling of your life, when you really tune in to the natural cycle of one of England's greatest rivers.

Once you have had success on the Trent you will catch fish on any other river in England. The Trent is the greatest teacher of them all.
 
I

Ian Whittaker

Guest
So its the lucky ones haven't got barbel in their rivers?
 
A

Ashe Hurst

Guest
Remember when you were kidds with basic tackle catching minnow & gudgon, one after another, asif they were queing up for the maggot, even if only the skin remained?

Well, thats what it can be like on the River Cray in kent for chub up to about 8 inches.

I've had mornings runnig through a stick float or rolling a ledger with either chub to 3lb or roach to 2lb on every trott.

Then theres those tight overgrown swimms, odd decent perch, chub or roach, maybe 2 or 3 fish then time to move on.

Other times, Nowt, or 2 bream or 1 tench.

Over the last 7 years I've seen carp, mirror, common and koi. Only yesterday a few small Brown Trout over the gravles, about 6 to 8 inches in length and chub under a bridge at least 4 to 5lb in wieght.

The old boys tell me of the Barbel,hundreds of trout and odd Grayling, shoals off bream and roach.

Yesterday, where last year there was waterlillies and reeds, this year there isnt any. Other stretches are rich in weed where last year it was gravle.

Other areas have had willows removed and now the water is choked with weed.

3 or 4 years ago some bits had gravel with water to 2 feet, now silted up and smelly.

All this change in a 1 mile stretch, some change and so quick.
 
R

Ron Clay

Guest
by the way Graham there is one big difference beween barbel and carp.

Barbel are a natural species that have evolved and inhabited the easterly flowing rivers of England for millions of years.

Carp are nothing more than selectively bred interlopers, brought here probably by the Romans for use as food.
 
A

Ashe Hurst

Guest
why east flowing rivers?

Im told that they used to be in the Cray, this flows NE ish.
Also reports of small barbel over the years but I've not seen any conclusive evidence.

Also the cray is a small river about 15 20 miles long, average width about 5 metres with larger pools up to 25 mtres across and to about 6 ft deep. The main river varies from just a few inches to about 4 ft.

also there are several weirs along the central stretches of this river.

There are however some typical Barbel looking stretches, Wide, gravel/sandy beds. Long flowing streemer weed. Overhanging trees and roots.

Sat there often, chub, roach, bream pike, perch, caught and seen swimming, but no Barbel.
 
B

Bob Watson

Guest
East flowing because thousands or even millions of years ago England was connected to the continent (Europe) by the east coast (obviously) and has split from it over the years. Barbel were/are indiginous to this part of the world, when it split Barbel came with it.

Ron told me that at Fawdington, amongst other things!
 
A

Andrew Thomas

Guest
Rivers that were, historically, part of the Rhine system I believe.
 
R

Ron Clay

Guest
As far as we know, this is quite correct.

Personally I find barbel, and most other members of the Barbus species some of the most exciting angling fish in the World.

From Mahseer - Barbus Tor of India, to the Large and Small Mouth Yellowfishes of the Vaal and Orange River System, From our local barbel to Barbus seirra, a smaller, but still very powerful fish of the Cape Province streams, they all all about excitement and fascination.

Any angler who does not find this species exciting, has little reason to call himself an angler.
 
A

Ashe Hurst

Guest
So, if the Thames at some point in time was part of the Rine, then its tributaries could have had Barbel?
 
R

Ron Clay

Guest
The tributaries of the Thames have always had barbel. The Kennet, Medway, Lea, Windrush, Cherwell and others do today.

The Hants Avon and Dorset Stour fish as well as the Severn, Teme, Wye and Lugg fish were introduced. The Avon and Stour fish came from the Thames ca 1903, and the Severn, Teme, Lugg and Wye fish by Angling Time ca 1956.

I often wonder if it was a good idea to introduce barbel to these rivers.

What do you think?
 
D

Dave Slater

Guest
Personally I prefer roach and chub, and the people who fish for them so, for me, it was not a good idea to introduce barbel to these rivers.
 
D

Dave O'L

Guest
Food for thought!
We have have a small head of large barbel in a particular area in one of our stretches on the Stour.
2 years ago though, a large club put a lot of v.small barbel into a stretch they rent above our waters. I think their idea is the barbel will gradually work downstream. By the time they are 'big' they will be in the club's 'famous' fishery.

I don't know what consultation procedures were followed if any? From the discussion though, I wonder if there will be an impact on our non barbel & barbel holding areas with hundreds of these small barbel working their way downstream?
 
D

Dave Slater

Guest
I know the club you mean Dave. From a personal point of view I was not very happy about it as I like to avoid barbel stretches whenever possible. I can see a time when almost all rivers will be barbel fisheries in the same way that almost all stillwaters have become carp fisheries. When this happens it will probably be time to hang up my rods so I hope it isn't in my lifetime.
 
D

Dave Slater

Guest
On many rivers the main barbel population are found in the middle and lower reaches. These areas are, therefore, very popular with barbel anglers. The upper reaches are very good for those of us who prefer to fish for other species such as chub, roach, perch etc. They are usually a bit quieter than the stretches further downriver and very pleasant to fish. If clubs introduce numbers of barbel in the upper reaches they are not only affecting their waters but those of other clubs with stretches on the upper reaches. This doesn't just apply to the Stour. There are also relatively barbel free stretches on the upper reaches of the Avon and the Great Ouse. I would have thought that the carp explosion would have taught club officials something. Although carp and barbel are both popular species not everybody wants to fish for them. Some mixed fishing should be preserved for those who prefer it.
 
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