Monofilament Line Strength Accuracy
- Thread starter GrahamM
- Start date
J
john conway
Guest
It’s going to be very interesting to see the published results? The company I work for also do similar test on exotic yarns for very high pressure fuel hoses so I’m familiar with the method of testing of mono filaments. Like Graham said it about bloody time, we pay enough money for it.
My company also carry out abrasion and memory test on yarns but this area is a bit more subjective as to the type of test and equipment used. Such tests should be as representative to the actual working conditions of the fishing line, i.e. held under tension on a reel spool, wet abrasion as opposed to dry abrasion, flexibility at low temperatures and also UV resistance.
My company also carry out abrasion and memory test on yarns but this area is a bit more subjective as to the type of test and equipment used. Such tests should be as representative to the actual working conditions of the fishing line, i.e. held under tension on a reel spool, wet abrasion as opposed to dry abrasion, flexibility at low temperatures and also UV resistance.
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Jeremy Airey
Guest
Hello John
Whilst I fully concur with yours and Graham's thoughts re. "about bloody time" would not it be more meaningful to perform these tests using a standard set of parameters.
I don't think you could ever get agreement as to what are 'actual working conditions' they just vary too much.
regards
Jeremy
Whilst I fully concur with yours and Graham's thoughts re. "about bloody time" would not it be more meaningful to perform these tests using a standard set of parameters.
I don't think you could ever get agreement as to what are 'actual working conditions' they just vary too much.
regards
Jeremy
Mark Wintle
Well-known member
Like many, I’m fed up with understated diameters, overstated/understated breaking strains. I want tough and durable but limp line.
Overall I’d like to see:-
Diameter stated within 2 ? % or rounded up to nearest hundredth of millimetre.
Wet and dry breaking strain within 10% margin.
A standard abrasion test with ranking say 1 to 10. Including what happens when you put shot on line.
Stiffness ranking 1 to 10 with standard test.
Standard ranking regarding floating or sinking say five categories from fast sink to high float.
Standard UV degradation test.
Overall I’d like to see:-
Diameter stated within 2 ? % or rounded up to nearest hundredth of millimetre.
Wet and dry breaking strain within 10% margin.
A standard abrasion test with ranking say 1 to 10. Including what happens when you put shot on line.
Stiffness ranking 1 to 10 with standard test.
Standard ranking regarding floating or sinking say five categories from fast sink to high float.
Standard UV degradation test.
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john conway
Guest
You’re right Jeramy about working conditions varying, I was thinking more general conditions such as all abrasion, tensile strength, and extension should be done wet. Another problem would be the units of measurement. Breaking strain is OK, lbs or Kgs, extension as a % at or near breaking strain, memory and abrasion get a bit hair fairy. At the angler level it could just be low, medium or high provide there was always a large enough gap between the ranges.
Slightly going off the point a bit, do you think the average angler knows the advantages and disadvantages of some of the characteristics of line? Do we sometimes judge them unfairly because in ignorance e.g. we expect a low stretch line to be as good as a high stretch one under shock loads? How long do we expect are line to last, it would be more helpful if this was expressed in hours actually fishing as opposed to how long it can sit in your tackle box in the garage? You know the sort of thing 200hrs of fishing or two years which ever comes first. I’m quite happy to pay good money for my line but can I trust what the manufacture says or the pro angler who’s sponsored?
It would be nice to get the lads on this site to come up with a best line manufacture for a give species or type of fishing. May be start a thread with a species and just ask the lads what they use and the breaking strain range with a short comment on why if they want
Slightly going off the point a bit, do you think the average angler knows the advantages and disadvantages of some of the characteristics of line? Do we sometimes judge them unfairly because in ignorance e.g. we expect a low stretch line to be as good as a high stretch one under shock loads? How long do we expect are line to last, it would be more helpful if this was expressed in hours actually fishing as opposed to how long it can sit in your tackle box in the garage? You know the sort of thing 200hrs of fishing or two years which ever comes first. I’m quite happy to pay good money for my line but can I trust what the manufacture says or the pro angler who’s sponsored?
It would be nice to get the lads on this site to come up with a best line manufacture for a give species or type of fishing. May be start a thread with a species and just ask the lads what they use and the breaking strain range with a short comment on why if they want
J
Jeremy Airey
Guest
John
My 'working conditions' vary in a given year (if I'm lucky) between 30F on the Yorkshire Ouse in December to a surf beach in Mexico in the high 80sF.
This thread could open a proverbial can of worms.
I fully take and understand all the points you made. We do have a tendancy to judge lines unfairly regarding there 'percieved' and actual charactersitics.
It will be interesting to see what comes of all this.
regards
Jeremy
My 'working conditions' vary in a given year (if I'm lucky) between 30F on the Yorkshire Ouse in December to a surf beach in Mexico in the high 80sF.
This thread could open a proverbial can of worms.
I fully take and understand all the points you made. We do have a tendancy to judge lines unfairly regarding there 'percieved' and actual charactersitics.
It will be interesting to see what comes of all this.
regards
Jeremy
Graham Whatmore
Senior Member
When I was match fishing I used to test my lines by tying a loop in the end, attach to scales and pull for a break. That gave me a better indication than the breaking strain quoted on the spool. The problem was, with stronger lines it was a bit of a shock for the scales and they eventually broke.
If you look at Shakespeare lines (Targa)you will notice that the breaking strain is now quoted 'with a knot in it' and this is far better suited to the angler, theres no way of fishing without having a knot somewhere. As you are all well aware, different lines take a knot better than others and if all breaking strains were quoted with a knot you would be better advised surely!
If you asked 10 anglers the best line to use on a reel you would probably get 8 different 'best lines', its very subjective, and why not, but I wonder how many of that 10 ever tested them in the first place
If you look at Shakespeare lines (Targa)you will notice that the breaking strain is now quoted 'with a knot in it' and this is far better suited to the angler, theres no way of fishing without having a knot somewhere. As you are all well aware, different lines take a knot better than others and if all breaking strains were quoted with a knot you would be better advised surely!
If you asked 10 anglers the best line to use on a reel you would probably get 8 different 'best lines', its very subjective, and why not, but I wonder how many of that 10 ever tested them in the first place
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Jeremy Airey
Guest
Graham W
"As you are all well aware, different lines take a knot better than others and if all breaking strains were quoted with a knot you would be better advised surely! "
Slightly off topic but a question.
Are we talking just within a given type of line like say the Monofilaments or knotting differences between different types of lines - mono to braid to wire for example?
In my experience there is very little difference as long as GOOD knotting techniques and the right knots are used.
regards
Jeremy
"As you are all well aware, different lines take a knot better than others and if all breaking strains were quoted with a knot you would be better advised surely! "
Slightly off topic but a question.
Are we talking just within a given type of line like say the Monofilaments or knotting differences between different types of lines - mono to braid to wire for example?
In my experience there is very little difference as long as GOOD knotting techniques and the right knots are used.
regards
Jeremy
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john conway
Guest
Back to the main point of this thread. Just been talking to one of the lads at work who’s working on the exotic yarns for fire and fuel hose, and he’s just explained the problems of measuring extension against strain and time, he’s even drawn me a nice little graph. The problem is getting all the manufactures to test their products in the same way. In the case of mono filaments, it is possible for the manufacture to adjust the rate at which the load is applied, temperature, time and moisture to bring the results into line with the sales pitch or the sales pitch is in line with the way "THEY" tested the product. This may not be the same as the angler expectations of the product on his reel while he’s fishing. Just as the EFTTA have found.
GrahamM
Managing Editor
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I think we're missing the point a little here. What we want are tests for the most important features that will be applied to all lines.
Providing the test conditions are constant for every line tested (which usually means controlled laboratory conditions) then we're going to end up with consistent figures that will tell us what we want to know.
Only by varying the test conditions will you end up with useless results.
Tests of knotted lines are a guide but are only going to be truly useful if the angler always ties the same knot as the one used in the test. Or always ties a knot that is best suited to the line in question. A knot that suits one line doesn't necessarily suit another.
When I visited the Topline factory in Germany earlier this year they tested all their lines for breaking point that had been tied with a simple granny knot. A useless knot for fishing but a damn good knot for doing tests, for any other knot can only get better.
Which is exactly what I mean by not varying the conditions. If Topline had tested one line with a granny knot and another line with a grinner then the results would be worthless. Good conditions/poor conditions, good knot/bad knot, it doesn't matter as long as it's the same for every line tested.
Providing the test conditions are constant for every line tested (which usually means controlled laboratory conditions) then we're going to end up with consistent figures that will tell us what we want to know.
Only by varying the test conditions will you end up with useless results.
Tests of knotted lines are a guide but are only going to be truly useful if the angler always ties the same knot as the one used in the test. Or always ties a knot that is best suited to the line in question. A knot that suits one line doesn't necessarily suit another.
When I visited the Topline factory in Germany earlier this year they tested all their lines for breaking point that had been tied with a simple granny knot. A useless knot for fishing but a damn good knot for doing tests, for any other knot can only get better.
Which is exactly what I mean by not varying the conditions. If Topline had tested one line with a granny knot and another line with a grinner then the results would be worthless. Good conditions/poor conditions, good knot/bad knot, it doesn't matter as long as it's the same for every line tested.
G
Gary Knowles
Guest
I also find it quite interesting that matchmen (who take breaking strains VERY seriously, especially on light hooklinks) now all seem to use diameter as the measurement rather than breaking strain...perahps a lot of specci lines would be caught out by this method
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BUDGIE BURGESS
Guest
Do you remember the crazy situation we had with Big Game? "BRILLIANT LINE,THE 15LB BREAKS AT 18LB" not many noticed that it had the same dismeter as most 18lb lines!!!!!!! In my book that made it an 18lb line labelled as a 15!!!!!!And the tackle tarts swallowed every word of it!
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Ron Martin
Guest
I've just done exactly what Graham Whatmore said, and tested a brand new spool of sinking line from a very well known manufacturer.
It was sold to me as a 3.0kg bs and not one of my tests exceeded 2.1kg before the line broke.
This is not a little bit out and knots did not form any part of the deal. I simply looped the line over my spring balance and wound it several turns around piece of broom handle.
By the way, I noticed from the manufacturers website that I also paid well over the odds for it too! but that of course is a different matter.
It was sold to me as a 3.0kg bs and not one of my tests exceeded 2.1kg before the line broke.
This is not a little bit out and knots did not form any part of the deal. I simply looped the line over my spring balance and wound it several turns around piece of broom handle.
By the way, I noticed from the manufacturers website that I also paid well over the odds for it too! but that of course is a different matter.
R
Ron Clay
Guest
We must also never froget that the vast majority of Mono lines are manufactured from nylon (polyamide).
This stuff is attacked by water (hydrolysis) and ultraviolet light.
In time it will degrade. Sometimes it degrades overnight and there's nothing we can do about it.
However as Graham says, it's time we had some sort of standard for line strengths. Even though they may not measure what happens in the real world, it's a good idea to be able to compare the properties of the various lines.
This stuff is attacked by water (hydrolysis) and ultraviolet light.
In time it will degrade. Sometimes it degrades overnight and there's nothing we can do about it.
However as Graham says, it's time we had some sort of standard for line strengths. Even though they may not measure what happens in the real world, it's a good idea to be able to compare the properties of the various lines.
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Rodney Wrestt
Guest
Ron M,
How acurate are the scales you used in the test? or should I say how acurate were they as I don't think the shock/jolt of the line breaking will do their calibration any favours. Although I can't see any half decent scales being out by the amount you found in your tests, I supose manufacturers/distributers will get away with it untill there are legitimate testing standards enforced.
How acurate are the scales you used in the test? or should I say how acurate were they as I don't think the shock/jolt of the line breaking will do their calibration any favours. Although I can't see any half decent scales being out by the amount you found in your tests, I supose manufacturers/distributers will get away with it untill there are legitimate testing standards enforced.
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Jeremy Airey
Guest
Ron M
I think Rodney makes a very fair point - are you sure your scales are accurate? Have you tested them recently - I used bags of sugar to calibrate mine and found they were weighing about a pound under at 6lbs, they needed a little TLC.
What was the age of the line and HOW had it been stored?
The other thing to take into account is where your line sample was breaking.
Although I'm sure nobody doubts, I certainly do not, the accuracy of your tests they are only relevant to the piece of line you were testing. There are just to many unknowns and variables for it to be any ither way.
Good on you for taking the trouble to try - most of us won't.
Mind you I should take that line back to the dealer and get a refund - your definately covered by the trades descriptions act.
regards
Jeremy
I think Rodney makes a very fair point - are you sure your scales are accurate? Have you tested them recently - I used bags of sugar to calibrate mine and found they were weighing about a pound under at 6lbs, they needed a little TLC.
What was the age of the line and HOW had it been stored?
The other thing to take into account is where your line sample was breaking.
Although I'm sure nobody doubts, I certainly do not, the accuracy of your tests they are only relevant to the piece of line you were testing. There are just to many unknowns and variables for it to be any ither way.
Good on you for taking the trouble to try - most of us won't.
Mind you I should take that line back to the dealer and get a refund - your definately covered by the trades descriptions act.
regards
Jeremy
S
Stu Black
Guest
I know I'll be very interested in the correct BS of korda IQ, i tied up 3 hook lenghts in the 25lb, and and was stretching them after tying, at arms length, all of them snapped in the middle, not at either knot! And i'm pretty sure I'm not THAT strong
P
Phil Hackett
Guest
I’m amazed at the discussion about standardised tests. Only in the world of engineering could you conceive of using several testing techniques to test the same product.
Real Science is based on exact replication of each experiment (test). Yes debate may rage as to what is the best test initially, but consensus is reach and that then becomes the standard to test all experiment relating to that area. End of story!
Real Science is based on exact replication of each experiment (test). Yes debate may rage as to what is the best test initially, but consensus is reach and that then becomes the standard to test all experiment relating to that area. End of story!
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Ron Clay
Guest
Phil,
The main problem with some laboratory experiments is that it is very difficult to replicate what happens in the real world.
I am very much involved with certain experiments we do in our lab on filters. You can draw certain conclusions on the lab tests, but when the filters hit the real world, things happen which can be hard to explain.
Where possible, we try to rate our products on emperical data done on actual on site tests. These are not always easy to set up, or to get the customers to give accurate data as to what is happening. Sometimes the customer will not even let you have any data for fear that you will go to one of their competitors with the results and do the same there, which they would not want.
In many cases our customers do not have the time nor resources to do this, other than to say: "Yes it SEEMS to work OK" or "No it's crap".
When you ask the question: "Why", they find it either hard to answer, or they won't answer.
I've had occasions in my life where I have sold products to a high tech company and they have carried on buying them but still claim that they work crap!
The main problem with some laboratory experiments is that it is very difficult to replicate what happens in the real world.
I am very much involved with certain experiments we do in our lab on filters. You can draw certain conclusions on the lab tests, but when the filters hit the real world, things happen which can be hard to explain.
Where possible, we try to rate our products on emperical data done on actual on site tests. These are not always easy to set up, or to get the customers to give accurate data as to what is happening. Sometimes the customer will not even let you have any data for fear that you will go to one of their competitors with the results and do the same there, which they would not want.
In many cases our customers do not have the time nor resources to do this, other than to say: "Yes it SEEMS to work OK" or "No it's crap".
When you ask the question: "Why", they find it either hard to answer, or they won't answer.
I've had occasions in my life where I have sold products to a high tech company and they have carried on buying them but still claim that they work crap!