Fighting Fish

Well, you heard the man. Is he right or not?

My view is that he's right when boat fishing over deep water and you can get right on top of the fish. But dropping your rod too low when fishing shallow water from the bank you need to get your rod higher than that.

Sorry Jeremy I cant agree with most of what you wrote!To put it into context and help me understand ,what size of fish are you talking about playing like this and what species??The strange thing is one of the few things I agree with you on is the point that Graham disagrees with! Lowering a through actioned rod can help put more pressure on a big fish by bringing the butt section into use but obviously as Graham says not too low.

Hello Budgie
I know these tactics work in situations that are appropriate bt of course they don't work in all circumstances. As an illustration I caught my biggest chub yesterday from a small, clear, snaggy and shallow stream near my house, all visual, stalking stuff too. Serious 'hook and heave' required and no place for the tactics in the article. BTW the chub weighed 4lbs plus - not a big chub to some I know - (no scales - travelling v.light and no camera either (grrrr)) and I'm pretty chuffed with it as I don't have much opportunity to fish for bigger chub. 8lb line, 7' rod and a #4 hook and 30 seconds (I'd guess) later it's on the bank for unhooking, like I said in the article special situations require special tactics.
I deliberately didn't mention size or species in the article as I firmly beleive that this should not be a factor. I'll always do what is nessecary to get the 'Fish' in ASAP on whatever tackle I'm using. I do get the 'flutters' when I first see a big old girl though, thought I mention that as I didn't want to sound to cold and clinical.
This 'approach' goes for me whether it is a barbel or a bonefish and I can't think of two more different fighters.
I'm glad we agree on one thing though. I remember a picture some 20 years back of the late Martin Gay bending an old Bruce and Walker glass SU MkIV deep into the butt with the rod pretty well horizontal a big pike on and thought 'Hey this chap's really onto something here'. I've tried to emulate what I saw in that picture ever since.
regards
Jeremy

I've got that pic in a book somewhere. Looks like one of the bends on the Ouse near Southery, wicked image.

Jeremy,

There's more than one way to skin a cat! Playing fish is not only about strength. The true masters can get a fish out through skill just as quick as you get them out with brute force. They confuse the fish and don't let it do the things it wants to. There's a lot to this. I also got a decent chub yesterday on the Ouse at 4-1. Mine was in a very snaggy swim on 2lb line and 18 hook. (the full story will be in a feature). It also took not much more than 30 seconds to land. There is a lot of skill involved. Top match anglers have to develop these skills to con the fish out because sometimes they hook a big fish on light gear in a match. They don't want to lose it just because their gear is inadequate.
It can be all about not really making the fish fight. Food for thought.
Mark

As an angler who has caught a few big fish, I tend to agree with you on most of what you say. However your comment about a rod that "locks up", I find difficult to comprehend.

If you bend any flexible material, the resistance to bending increases the more you bend it. It reaches a point where you can't bend it any more based on the strength you possess. This might seem like the rod is locking up, but I'll bet it will still go on bending if you had the strength.

There are occasions where I have landed big fish on quite fine tackle. By keeping out of sight and coaxing the fish towards the net.

I find that some fish really start fighting when they see the angler on the bank, not when they feel the pull on the line.

There are only two ways that you can land a fish (I do not include the fish friendly but totally naff method of "boat assisted play" used on bill fish and the likes)These are to tire it out and draw it to the waiting landing net or as mentioned the long drawn out method of conning the fish into the net.When I fish for big fish I want them netted as soon as possible! two reasons for this,firstly the quicker the fish is landed the sooner it can be unhooked and released and secondly the shorter the fight the less oportunity of it getting away!Strength is only relative the important thing being the tackle/fish/conditions and angler being balanced. I have fouind that a through actioned rod (used as a giant spring) tires fish a lot quicker than any stiff rod with no risk of tackle breakages or hook pulls.I have lots of theories to why this is but none of them really matter.Its facts that matter.A good example is the Catfish we catch abroad.A lot of people followed the example of the German anglers (including a lot of the so called English pioneers) in Spain and used sea tackle such as huge multipliers,heavy lines and boat/uptide rods.Many write about hour long fights on this sort of gear (I have also seen some!!)Do you knopw how long it takes to land a treble figure catfish on a 4lbTC through actioned rod using 25lb line? on average about 7 minutes,yes seven minutes.This goes for people who have never landed one half this size before.Now am I some kind of angling god to be able to land these fish so much quicker than the "experts"? Unfortunately not it is just the use of balanced tackle.A lot of the boat/rod multiplier brigade have been gob smacked when theve witnessed it,even more so when they have done it them selves.
As well as using the correct tackle you must also use it correctly.No room for back winding with powerfull fish (even though it is my prefered method for both carp and pike)Drags must be set and used so that maximum pressure can be applied at all times.You can not do this by backwinding and as for engaging a free spool mechanism and cupping the spool,well fine if you have asbestos hands and your fish a good sense of fair play!The angler needs to play a big fish not the other way around!Courtesey does not allow me to mention names but I have guided several well known anglers whilst they are making vidios/tv and they always have to cut out the bits when I am asking the angler if he is going to start pulling on the fish.Please do not think I am trying to sound gung ho but you realy aint doing the fish any favours by extending the fight.A lot of people these days do not seem to understand the basic mechanics of angling.I was recently took to task by a Catfish expert for using such light tackle!(he openly brags about 1 hour plus fights and nursing the fish in the margins for hours!)Same on a Carp site when I was told that 25lb line and a 31/4 lbTC rod were what I should be using for snag fishing and not a 1 1/2TC and 15lb line.I didnt invent/discover any of these theories they are what I thought was just commonly accepted angling facts!!!

Please do not think I am nocking Jeremy or his article as it is purely a reflection on his experiences.From what you say mate I should imagine a lot of this would be based on pelagic species hooked whilst out on a charter?Please tell me right or wrong.I say this as a lot of "Big Game" boats carry pretty stiff fast actioned pokers as standard.This is really for two reasons,one they can cast a lure and secondly they are pretty robust and "punter proof"!The method of playing you describe is one that I have seen many skippers and deckies advise.This is mainly to overcome the short commings of the type of rod used and the doubts in the crews mind about the clients capabilities!That said it obviously does work but isnt nesasarily the best way and in no way should be used/taken as a definitive method.
Slightly of the subject may I just say how nice it is too totaly disagree with some ones view point and yet have it taken in the way it is intended.Even recieving a constructive reply.Not what you get on a lot of sites and a credit to FM and its members.

I said earlier: "My view is that he's right when boat fishing over deep water and you can get right on top of the fish. But dropping your rod too low when fishing shallow water from the bank you need to get your rod higher than that."

I meant when the fish is under the rod as in the picture in Jeremy's article.

There's a lot of Jeremy says that I would agree with, but every fish, regardless of species, will fight differently. You have to adapt for the individual fish.
I totally agree with him though on the point about line as I have always said, use the heaviest that you can get away with (to a point). This, together with the rod, does help shorten the fight and reduce the chance of toxins building up in the fish's muscles. This will lead to a quicker recovery as well.
I am still intrigued by the pole-man's tactic of burying the pole in the water. It works with a running line too. Why doesn't the fish mind being pulled through the water yet fights against something pulling it out of the water?

Jeff there is another reason "pole men" as you call them bury the pole tip in the water when fighting a larger fish. That is so that if a break occurs the water cushions the effect of the stretched elastic pulling the pole float back and seriously burying itself into the angler.

Thanks for all the interest chaps and isn't it good to have adult discussion rather than childish unpleasantness.
OK without writing a post longer than the article I like to comment on a few of your points.
Ron
RE. 'locking' - I'm sure your right in 'absolute' terms but will you give me the 'for all practical purposes' getout on this one, I should have put that in the article.
( Oh and BTW Ron I'm SOooo PURTY I've never had a fish bolt of when it's seen me - just the odd offer to have my fry!!)
Graham
I agree some of the tactics mentioned are at there best when directly over a fish, deep water can help too, but they do work in water a lot shallower than you might think, eg most of my boatfishing is done in water less than 12' deep.
It's a shame I could only find 'action' pics of me boat fishing as this might have conveyed the wrong impression of how I fish most of the time, IE on foot from the bank.
Budgie
I hope I get it right when I say our fish fighting 'philosophy' (ie fight 'em hard and get them returned ASAP) is the same and we just get there using different routes. Fishings a big enough sport for us both to be 'right' in our own ways.
Re. the 'free spool' thing once again I should have perhaps made it more clear that this is only used JUST before you actually do the landing of the fish and that the reel is re-engaged almost immediately - I'm new to article writing and I'll be more pecise next time if there is one LOL.
One other point that comes across from what you say is that a lot of people have the gear but just don't know what it can do - I wonder if your short rod/multiplier guys fell into this category.
I do wish I could say how long it takes to land any cat let alone a 100 plusser - perhaps the Ebro and 2004 will be kind to me.
Anyway 7 mins/100 plus cat impresses me and if I tell you I'm from Essex you'll know we are genetically disposed not to impress easily.
Re. charter boats I agree fully with your comments on 'boat' and 'crew' assisted fish, it's for tourists and rich USA 'big game' writers/types who are too lazy or unwilling to do the job for themselves. Abroad a boat is a nessecity at times to get to the fish
but after that how much you avail yourselves of there services and tackle is up to you. Personally I'd rather have one Rooster or bonefish or pike for that matter I'd cast and hooked on my own tackle than all the marlin in Mexico or Australia that the boat had 'assisted' my catching.
Jeff
I fully agree every 'fight' should be treated as different and this is why I didn't specify species or weight. There are just too many other factors to take into account - eg snags, water temp., bankside vegitation ect,ect.....
Thanks for the comments guys - it's always useful and 'good to talk'.
regards
Jeremy

Many good points there Jeremy.I hope you do write some more articles as I for one have found the subsequent debate this one has raised most interesting and thought provoking.

There are two types of fights with big fish. First of all there are those fish that go like hell.

I call them the greyhounds.

Amongst the species I list here are fit rainbow trout, tigerfish, medium sized barbel, small mouth bass, bonefish and some esturine and saltwater fish I have caught. On being hooked they take off in a long very fast run and then will often jump high in the air shaking their heads. Some species can cover 100 yards in seconds.

Often, you cannot stop these fish. You must let them run and at the same time keep the rod as high as possible to keep as much line out of the water as possible. Get it wrong and the initial inertia plus line drag will often break the line with a crack like a gunshot. Even 15 pound line can be smashed.

Such fights don't last all that long. The fish tires itself out very quickly, but watch that fish when you get it under your rod tip. It will often give a final plunge with devastating results.

Attempting to backwind such species is folly indeed.

Then you get the sloggers.

These are fish such as pike, carp, tench, catfish, big barbel and some species of sea fish.

Here you must use as much pressure as possible. Fish such as sharp tooth catfish and Vundu can slog away for a long time- hours even. There is only one way to beat these fish and that is by appying a great deal of pressure. They must be made to fight for every inch of line they take.

You need strong arms, a shortish flexible yet powerful rod and preferably a multiplying reel.

Such fish eventually succombe to heavy pressure from directly above.

A boat helps.

I have hooked catfish from the shore that have been almost impossible to beat, yet from a boat they have been quite easy.

Again you must refrain from wanting to backwind. An applied steady drag from a correctly set clutch with finger pressure will beat the fish much qicker than backwinding where you have very little control.

A fighting drag helps a great deal.

I agreed totally untill you got to the bit about boats.IMO unless the boat is substantial you will have problems putting any pressure on a fish! Pull as hard as you want and all you do is pull the boat to the fish!This is where a lot of the "long" battles with Wells Cats especially come from.Same when you are over the top of them unless the boat is big you just tip it towards the fish and are at its mercy.I always have a boat in the water but would only get in it to play/land a fish as the last resort.I see some boys on the Ebro and the Saonne who when they get a take whilst bank fishing dont even strike it untill they are in the boat!! Dont see them for the rest of the day though!Basic physics really.

Hello Fishing Magic.
I was wondering if you could help me choose some suitable bait for tomorrow as me,my dad,and his m8 are going to Rudyard to catch Pike.
Can you suggest any good methods or bait to use please??
Thanks.
Daniel Geary

Rudyard fishes well to both live and deadbait. Mackerel tails are as good as anything. At this time of year fish more towards the dam end rather than the shallow end.

Post your question again on the predator forum Daniel, you might get some more help there. Good luck on Rudyard!