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Dave Rothery
Guest
I have little confidence with pop-ups, prefering a bait straight out the bag, as its more like the freebies or a critically balanced bait to catch them unawares. What do you prefer, and why?
J
jason fisher
Guest
if i was mad enough to carp fish in the depths of winter anymore, i'd use the popups then, usually high attract on one rod in a vain attempt to make the carp laugh and forget what they're doing and eat the bait.
other wise i'm like you, i did once make them by adding crab and krill to the base mix and using half as much flavour again, they worked too.
other wise i'm like you, i did once make them by adding crab and krill to the base mix and using half as much flavour again, they worked too.
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John Pleasance
Guest
I prefer a bacon sandwich and a cup of tea.
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Bill Cox
Guest
Critically balanced corn/maise fished over corn and pellet seems to work well this time of year.Plastic corn has certainly made things easier.I,ve also had some success with two or even three pieces of plastic corn fished as a straight pop up.
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Budgie Burgess
Guest
I have got a long standing theory about the presentation of boilies,in fact all subsurface carp baits.This is based on hundreds of hours of watching carp feed in their natural habitat and not aquariums! When feeding carp dont/cant(?) target specific items of food they merely suck up all in the general area.Due to this I always critically balance my baits so that they have as near to a neutral bouyancy as possible.I believe that if a carp is sucking up food near my bait that my bait and hook will be inadvertantly taken into the carps mouth wether it wants it or not!The only "proof"I have that this is correct is the fact that I have been able to watch fish take my bait in this manner a couple of times.Some people say that this presentation is so unnatural that it will spook the carp! They obviously havnt seen carp feeding close up!!Give it a go you cant loose anything.The bait can either be a critically balanced bottom bait or critically balanced popup dont seem to mater.I caught one of my best fish from Collinbrook on a critically balanced hook with only black beads and small black poly balls on it,fished over a bed of hemp.Works great over beds of pellet too.
A cut &paste from an earlier thread Im afraid Dave.I know what you mean (well I think I do!) about pop ups.I much prefer to pop up a bait with out changing it by micro waving or grilling etc even though this contradicts my theory a bit.If I was to be 100% true to it then an artificial popup should be my choice!A confidence thing I supose.
A cut &paste from an earlier thread Im afraid Dave.I know what you mean (well I think I do!) about pop ups.I much prefer to pop up a bait with out changing it by micro waving or grilling etc even though this contradicts my theory a bit.If I was to be 100% true to it then an artificial popup should be my choice!A confidence thing I supose.
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Dave Rothery
Guest
the only problem i have with critical baits is that they can waft around a bit, especially if the fish are feeding hard and troughing around. wouldn't a bottom bait work better in those situations?
budgie. microwaving DOES change the flavour of the bait in my experience, and can be a bit hit or miss (especially with fishmeals). thats why i always cork the bait - its exactly the same then? does it make a difference? ask the carp......
budgie. microwaving DOES change the flavour of the bait in my experience, and can be a bit hit or miss (especially with fishmeals). thats why i always cork the bait - its exactly the same then? does it make a difference? ask the carp......
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Budgie Burgess
Guest
I agree that micro waving or grilling can change them too Dave the way I worded it didnt come over properly after re reading my post.I too cork them.
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Dave Rothery
Guest
see what you mean now.....
Oscar The Grouch
New member
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I generally use critically balanced baits popped up off the eye of the hook.
I find that it is a very good presentation for most varieties of lake beds. I suppose, for peace of mind, knowing that if you have cast onto a small patch of silkweed or whatever weed, your bait wont sink into it, and ultimately ruin your rig presentation. Neither will it stand "too tall" on a clear lake bed and appear unnatural.
As for the bait wafting around, I have found that as long as your rig is designed to allow for this, I have found this a positive. I have noticed that most wary carp will actually try and move a bait before actually swallowing it. Sometimes, I have seen them use their fins to create a disturbance or they will suck and blow (without inhaling the bait) just to see how the bait will act. They may do this a few times, leaving the bait and coming back later to try again before they are totally confident. I find sometimes that a bait straight out of the bag will act differently to the other freebies sraight out of the bag because of the hook etc that makes your hookbait heavier and therefore act differently to the rest of the freebies.
I think the most important factor though in effectiveness of the presentation is massively controlled by the baiting situation which you have created.
I think it depends on the:
1/ quantity of freebaits
2/ size of freebaits
3/ location of freebaits in relation to your hookbait.
I find that it is a very good presentation for most varieties of lake beds. I suppose, for peace of mind, knowing that if you have cast onto a small patch of silkweed or whatever weed, your bait wont sink into it, and ultimately ruin your rig presentation. Neither will it stand "too tall" on a clear lake bed and appear unnatural.
As for the bait wafting around, I have found that as long as your rig is designed to allow for this, I have found this a positive. I have noticed that most wary carp will actually try and move a bait before actually swallowing it. Sometimes, I have seen them use their fins to create a disturbance or they will suck and blow (without inhaling the bait) just to see how the bait will act. They may do this a few times, leaving the bait and coming back later to try again before they are totally confident. I find sometimes that a bait straight out of the bag will act differently to the other freebies sraight out of the bag because of the hook etc that makes your hookbait heavier and therefore act differently to the rest of the freebies.
I think the most important factor though in effectiveness of the presentation is massively controlled by the baiting situation which you have created.
I think it depends on the:
1/ quantity of freebaits
2/ size of freebaits
3/ location of freebaits in relation to your hookbait.
B
Budgie Burgess
Guest
Oscar,a man after my own heart! I forgot to mention Dave that I normally use a "Looped eye" hair rig. Same sort of thing as Oscar describes.The wafting about bit being unnatural,this is what a lot of people say when I explain my presentation.What do you think your freebies do when a carp starts stirring the swim up? as long as your hook bait/rig is critically balanced as opposed to just "popped up" then your hook bait will behave the same as the freebies.Fished any other way then surely it is the hook bait not "wafting" about that makes it different to the freebies?What do you reckon on that Dave?
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Dave Rothery
Guest
i've seen baits roll around when fish wave their pecs over a spot, never fly around. surely that distinguishes itself as different? if the fish doesnt take that bait first, it'll look a bit odd wont it?
as a seperate question (should start another thread) why do people worry about fishing in weed? thats where the carp are, baits/food is at all levels in it. so long as the hookpoints clear no problems?
as a seperate question (should start another thread) why do people worry about fishing in weed? thats where the carp are, baits/food is at all levels in it. so long as the hookpoints clear no problems?
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William Spencer
Guest
personally i prefer a pop up.especially squid and octopus.they work at st.john's eh dave?
how are you keeping my friend?
how are you keeping my friend?
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Dave Rothery
Guest
told you it'd never work 
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Budgie Burgess
Guest
How the freebies behave Dave is governed by their ingrediants.The aim of critically balancing is obviously to counter act the weight of the hook and make the bait act the same as the freebies.How ever I see what you are saying.My baits tend to be very bouyant any way due to their content and the fact that I like them to bounce around when a carp stirs them up!
I think that the advantage of a bait that is more bouyant than the freebies can also have its merits as like I said it doesnt matter if they are intentionaly trying to pick it up or not.Also if I had the bottle I would even consider useing just a bare balanced hook!!!Sounds bizzare I know.Actually watched Carp "picking up" on this method they must be quite suprised when the ball of food five away from the ones they are eating suddenly flys into their mouth!!But on a good set up once its in its to late.Some people have sugested that a long or sliding hook length would compliment this aproach.Makes sense but have never found it nesessary.Give it a go in a situation where you can see the take Dave you will be well suprised.
I think that the advantage of a bait that is more bouyant than the freebies can also have its merits as like I said it doesnt matter if they are intentionaly trying to pick it up or not.Also if I had the bottle I would even consider useing just a bare balanced hook!!!Sounds bizzare I know.Actually watched Carp "picking up" on this method they must be quite suprised when the ball of food five away from the ones they are eating suddenly flys into their mouth!!But on a good set up once its in its to late.Some people have sugested that a long or sliding hook length would compliment this aproach.Makes sense but have never found it nesessary.Give it a go in a situation where you can see the take Dave you will be well suprised.
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Budgie Burgess
Guest
Oh right behind you on the weed thing.Easy enough to make sure your rig still works in it and as you say thats where they find a lot of food.
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Dave Rothery
Guest
like i said at the star budgie, i do use them!
you say critically balance to counter the hook/hooklength - surely you should balance those and then put on a bog standard hookbait if you wanted it to act exactly as a freebie?
you say critically balance to counter the hook/hooklength - surely you should balance those and then put on a bog standard hookbait if you wanted it to act exactly as a freebie?
C
Carp Angler
Guest
I've tried counterbalancing hooks with cork on the shank, but after tank tests I felt that the cork would possibly impede the penetration, so scrapped the idea.
The principle is sound, so if anyone else has tried, some feedback would be appreciated.
The principle is sound, so if anyone else has tried, some feedback would be appreciated.
GrahamM
Managing Editor
- Joined
- Feb 23, 1999
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- 9,773
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But a cork ball inside a boilie does offer a bait, as far as the carp are concerned, the same as the freebies? Surely only if the cork ball can be detected could it be seen as different if the bait is balanced to behave the same as the freebies. Or am I missing something?
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Dave Rothery
Guest
i think we've agreed corking the bait is the best way of getting an "identical" pop up, i think we're back to the pop-up/bottom/critical balanced arguement. lets say we're using 24mm baits, would a crititcally balanced 24mm act the same as a standard bait? a 24mm has a fair amount of mass so would stay on the bottom - requiring a much stronger suck from the carp. the other problem is over silt - the fish would have their heads in it, not looking for baits on top.
the right presentation for the situation.....
the right presentation for the situation.....