live baiting the ethics

we have elements that we do as pike anglers, that are considered by many to be polictically icorrect.

i found this as a state ment on another thread within this site.
and lets face it it is a reference to live baiting.

now i've only been on this site for about 4 months but in that time i've not seen any debate on the ethics of live baiting and i think it's time i stirred the water as it were.
what are your thoughts.

please don't lets have any knee jerk reactions, only properly considered and thought out discussion as i personaly think the subject is too serious for any other treatment.

and just so every one knows my position i'll start.

live baiting is a method which i do use, but it is my last resort method.

once i have gone through my whole array of deads and tried lures then i will resort to lives, i know this has and still does cost me fish on the bank, but it is my personal preference to only resort to live baits if i can get nothing else to work.

what do you think.

shall we muddy the water a little more then ?

I think your view is absolutely spineless and riddled with contradiction.

Why do you only fish livebaits as a last resort?
Your conscience is telling you that livebaiting is wrong, but you are that desperate to catch that you will use a method that you dislike.

You should have the courage to either use the method or stand against it, don't piddle about somewhere in the middle.


Me? I use livebaits as a first resort when I am catting and the occasional time that I fish for pike, I will use livebaits if I deem them to be the correct method on the day.

I also use live fish for bait when after perch, I use live maggots for most species and live worms for a lot of species too.

Where does ethics stop?

My first choice of bait for pike and zander is livebait, except on one or two waters I fish where deads seem to always take the biggest fish.

This topic should stir the ****. I for one am happy to use live bait but I do think there is something to be said for only using live bait caught in the lake or river you are fishing. Thus avoiding bringing in disease.

I use livbaits for perch on some waters. It depends on where I am fishing, as livebaits are better on some waters and lobworms on others. I generally use deadbaits when pike fishing, as they seem to sort out the bigger fish on the venues I fish. I would use livebaits on waters where they caught the bigger fish. One thing I would not do is transfer livebaits from one water to another. As well as being illegal this is irresponsible and, I agree with Geoff, can bring in disease. Apart from that I would use livebaits when they are the most suitable method for the venue being fished. As long as we are breaking no laws I do not think we should moralise on what others choose to do.

This subject has been done to death over the years on this, and every other website.

To be honest I can see no value in raising it again all it will do is cause further divide amongst ourselves and the antis will be on line taking notes and using quotes.

Livebaiting is legal, perfectly acceptable and a tremendous method and like Dave says who are we to moralise on what other chose to do. Me?

Much as I'd hate to, I've got to agree with Rik. What a silly statement to say "I use livebaits as a last resort. Total contradiction.

Dave / Geoff,

As far as I am aware there has NEVER been a single reported case of a pike angler importing fish (livebaits) bringing a disease to a water. It's EA scaremongering.

The EA themselves move thousands of fish at atime and they only check a tiny percentage of these for disease. Who's the most likely to spread a virus them the pike angler with a bucket of half a dozen roach or the tons of fish moved about by the EA.

Lets get real lads !

Coarse fish being introduce by pike angles have had a big impact on several of the waters in the lake district, were existing rare species of fish have been put under increasing pressure by these introductions.
I would also point out that fish moved by the EA are heath checked before being introduced. I have never heard of a Pike angler getting this done.
I also seam to think that illegally introduced Carp from the continent have brought in viruses killing thousands of native Carp.
Correct me if I am wrong!

it's not spineless at all.
i prefer not to use them if i can get pike and perch on other methods,
i always have the feeling that if i put a roach on the hook for a pike that fish might just have been the next record had i not chosen it as a bait.
i'm also not trying to say that other people should not use them, anyone who makes the choice to use lives has the right, i do not want this changed in any way.
when i do use lives i catch them in the swim i am fishing in and i quite frequently use methods which draw baitfish into the area of my deads.
when i have used lives they have also only caught small fish.
i've never had a fish over 15lb on lives anywhere.
my thinking is this.
try the methods that i've caught all my 20's and both 30's on, if they don't work and there's time left to catch a live then try the method on the day.
it's at the end of the day when i've seen fish feeding and i've thought i should have gone onto lives more quickly that i know i've missed fish by not using them.
when i'm perching i use 2 rods one for lobs and one for lives if i can get bleak, not usually a problem in the places i fish.
experience has shown me that bleak are a better perch bait here than any other live bait, but both my 4's came on lob.
the lob now gets used as preference bait as i have had better results with it.
and if i was fishing for the big european river cats i would use lives it's the best method.

"Coarse fish being introduce by pike angles have had a big impact on several of the waters in the lake district, were existing rare species of fish have been put under increasing pressure by these introductions"

This is true, but not what we were talking about, we were talking about importing a disease.

"I would also point out that fish moved by the EA are heath checked before being introduced. I have never heard of a Pike angler getting this done."

And I'd like to point out that they check only a tiny percentage of the fish they introduce maybe a couple of fish per thousand are killed and checked. What about the other 998 Geoff, are they disease free ?

"I also seam to think that illegally introduced Carp from the continent have brought in viruses killing thousands of native Carp"

I don't know if your right or wrong Geoff and for what it's worth I deplore the introduction of carp into river systems. But I'll say again, this is not what we were talking about is it ?

my biggest mistake in starting this thread was to put ethics in the title, now i'm sober i dont think it should have been there, and i also don't think that personal attacks on people by calling them spineless will get anyone anywhere rick.
i don't use em because i think they are a crap bait for pike, great if you want jacks but for proper fish crap.
and yes i am bloody angry now.

I told you it would stir the S**T. Good fun if you don't take it personally. I love to stir, but you should never resort to cheap insults.

Now I'm confused....How can a fish's natural food be a crap bait ?

The biggest problem with livebaits has nothing to do with morality or disease.

Fish movement has led to huge decline in our native Rudd and Crucian populations and has made it far more difficult to find a big Roach water where you know, rather than hope, the big fish are Roach.

On more than one occasion I've been Roaching on Startops with a Pike Angler fishing next to me with a bucket full of Rudd livebaits.

Using livebaits doesn't worry me, nor does using livebaits from one water in another. I have never seen any evidence of movement of livebaits leading to the spread of disease. The thing that worries me is that anglers often discard unused livebaits at the end of the day.

If the EA were to look at the whole problem from an objective view they would allow people to move livebaits from water to water and concentrate their efforts on educating people not to chuck spare bait in at the end of a session.

Spot on.

I see nothing wrong whatsover transporting livebaits that are indigenous to the water you are fishing. To say this spreads disease is total and utter nonesense.

Obviously though as it is illegal I don't do this !!!!!!!!

I'll use them when and where I see fit i.e. if it is the best method or when I can be bothered to catch them in the first place. Yes, lazy deadbait slinging does take over at times.

Now take trout livebaits as an example: I know a number of fishery owners that allow trout lives to be brought to the water as long as it's from a recognized source - what's the difference between a trout reared on a farm and a "wild" roach for example?

I recently enquired about the stock of a lake that was being drained and was told that if the fish were disease free our syndicate were welcome to them. It turned out they were diseased and ended up being sold "commercially" by the EA. Now that, to me, means they were stocked into another water??? Who's the potential disease spreader there?

Hear we go again! It dissapoints me that so much has been written on this subject but obviously so little read (or remembered!)

There has never been a proven case of translocation of fish by an angler using them for live baits causing disease.FACT

There has never been a proven case of the translocating of fish for bait establishing a breeding population of non indigenous fish,you will no doubt want to tell me abouy Ruffe? What piker is going to go to all the effort of obtaining,keeping, and transporting live bait and then choose Ruffe?get real!

The above are facts.What follows are just my opinion-

Just as when you first start fishing the piker must decide if the act of live baiting is cruel,this is just as much a personal choice as is that of to fish or not.I respect any mans descission as long as it is not pushed on others.Using psudo science to back up a personal preference.

As was once said how can you justify to an anti angler sticking a hook in a fish and then winding it in but decry sticking a hook in a fish then casting it out?

Live baiters should be sensible and discreet in the use of their chosen method (I had a right slagging off for saying that a short time ago!)By this I mean the following-
Baits should preferabley be caught and used in the same water.If this isnt practical then care should be taken to use onlealthy fish and do ones best to keep them that way.Trout from farms are a good bet and SEtion 30 consent can be gained.If you are taking fish from a water then dont kick the arse out of it with both numbers and sizes.
Be discreet in your use of them ie dont bait up in front of Joe Public.Even though its legal treat it like picking your nose!

A couple more observations-
Dont tell me that live baits are not needed,several waters I fish you would not be able to buy a bite on a dead! Some others you would have a very lean season.

Deadbaits catch the big uns and lives are only good for Jacks is an old wives tale on most waters.

Nowt wrong with deads mind and on some waters they can be very good.Never fished one where they are essential though.

A lot of people dont livebait (properly) as they just cant be bothered!Fine Ive no problem with that either in fact suits me fine!just dont tell others what they can do.

All the time people dont challenge the issue of live bait transporting spreading disease then the rules will not be changed and maybe more importantly it wont be examined properly.I am sure that most pikers like myself would stop transporting if it was proved.

Not good policy to transport carp or any of the ornementals as the ornemental fish trade is rife with disease.

I have given my views based on 35+ years and several fishery managment courses,but I know some will disagree with my views,I have no problem with that.Some though will choose to ignore the facts though this does annoy me especialy as the reason they do so is that their whole problem with live baiting has nothing to do with disease or translocation but they use these laws to get their own way.

Dont like live baiting? cant be bothered with all the effort(and there is some)? then fine I have no problem with that but dont hide behind the incorrect ideas that have brought these rules in to existance to stop my self and others doing so.

If it was banned tommorow would it affect me? NO cause I would carry on any way remember "sensible and discreet" Christ they cant even be bothered to come out and check my licences yet alone come and check my bait!!

i got 6 fish on lives from one swim on the thames october to december, not one over 8lb, i had more than 6 fish over 10 lb on deads from the same swim at the same time.
when i fish lives that is my experience lives get jacks and deads bigger fish.
i've not come across a water yet where deads do not work, some of you it would seem have.
what types of venues were these waters.