Dace on the Decline?

Peter Jacobs · Apr 16, 2004

Another thought provoking article from Mark, many thanks.

I have for a long time now thought that one of the major reasons for the decline of the Dace fishing (and to some degree the Roach fishing too) on the Hampshire Avon has been due to the increases in both quantity and quality of the Barbel population.

If you think back to the golden days of the Avon from the mid 70's say, the Barbel were rarely caught much above the Royalty Fishery whilst the Dace and Roach shoals were very evident right upstream to above Salisbury.
These days you can catch Barbel up to and above Salisbury and the Dace have all but disappeared.
On the estate where I used to have the old cottage there were Barbel in the weirstream and that is about 5 miles above Salisbury but they were electro netted everfy years as the stretch is a Fly only venue.

There are still a few productive pockets of Dace in areas like the Downton club stretch and at the top of the Hale Syndicate, but generally speaking the Dace are but distant memories.

I am told that there are some good Dace shoals still in parts of the Nadder and I saw few reasonable sized Dace in the Ebble last weekend when I was out fish spotting.

Ron Troversial Clay · Apr 16, 2004

Plenty of good dace in the Yorkshire rivers, especially the Upper Swale.

And i've noticed that dace seem to be making a come back to the Trent.

Wolfman Woody · Apr 16, 2004

That was a very good, passionate plea. A good read.

Our EA fisheries people tell us that the biomass in the Thames is getting bigger, but they admit that this could due to larger pike and the growing populationn of carp. Has Mark noticed the carp population grow in his area? I am sure that this is affecting the breeding of all silver fish. Perhaps it's time that the rivers, Thames especially, were netted and all carp removed and either put into big lakes or buried (sorry to say that) if they are diseased.

There's nothing nicer than getting stuck into a nice shoal of dace and filling a keep net with them. Sorry, but where there's a lot of pike around I believe a keep net to be a life saver for them.

Mark Wintle · Apr 16, 2004

Thanks for the comments. In such a short article I could not bring out every factor. On the Hants Avon there is predation by the mass releases of rainbow trout from the farms. There has been an increase in carp numbers in these rivers but unlikely to have had as much impact as cormorants.

Interesting, Jeff, that you mention the Thames. I had many dace from the Oxford area years ago but that was before the perch revival (around 1979?), maybe perch are another factor on the Thames and Stour? Though not a record my best carp bag from the Thames is 26 carp (average 3oz) in 3 hours. The good old TWA put dustbin loads in at Wolvercote around 20 years ago.

Unlike some other species I've never had a problem with dace in keepnets provided they are the soft sort not the mono scratchers that were around for a short while.

I have been wondering about an upper Thames FM fish-in (not match) next summer/autumn - anyone up for it?

Peter Jacobs · Apr 16, 2004

Like Mark I have never had any problems with Dace in keepnets providing that modern materials were used in construction.
If a keepnet is of decent proportions and is well sited and properly staked-out then for day sessions no one ought to encounter any real problems for species like Dave, Bleak, Roach or even Chub. In fact I nealy always use a keepnet for Chub if I am staying in one swim for the day.

Upper Thames Fish-In?
Sounds like that could be fun Mark, providing it is on one of my return trips then I'd be up for that.

Peter Jacobs · Apr 16, 2004

Oops!

Not Dave, but Dace.

(excuse the fat fingers today folks)

Matthew Black · Apr 16, 2004

Dace decline?

Try a combination of cormorants, lack of eels, otters, 'cleaner rivers', mix then altogether in the Magimix and see what answer you get?

Have I missed out a 'magic ingredient'?

Dave Slater · Apr 16, 2004

Peter,
Around 20 years ago there was a massive head of barbel on both the Avon and the Stour. There were also a vast number of dace then. In fact I would go so far as to say they were a total pain in the arse when chub or barbel fishing. There are far fewer barbel around today, although the average size is bigger. Although dace seem conspicuous by their absence much of the time there seemed to be a lot around in the summer. I had to stop using the feeder on the Stour in the early months of the season. In late summer/early autumn I was catching a lot of dace on the middle Avon, together with chublets and small roach. For some reason they seemed to disappear from about October onwards. The dace must have been around for a few years as some of them were quite big. Where do they go to? That is the mystery. They must go somewhere. In the past they were caught all through the season. I wonder if climate changes may be an influence. Mark makes a very valid point about escapee rainbow trout. There were also the very irresonsible releases of mink, less than a mile from my home. By the way I am glad that was a misspelling Peter as it would take a very large keepnet to put me in

) Personally I don't keep roach or chub in keepnets. I may sack the occasional large one for a while prior to photographing. If they are put back away from the swim they seem to carry on feeding. When they have been kept in a net the swim usually will not fish well the next day but if they are put straight back it often will. I know Mark has found the same from past discussions with him.

Wolfman Woody · Apr 16, 2004

Mark - upper Thames - I'm up-per for that.

Whereabouts, do you reckon?

Peter Jacobs · Apr 16, 2004

Dave,

If you want to know where some of those mid Avon Dace go after September then have a quiet chat with Dave Moody

On the Hale I nearly always set my keepnet up about 15 yards away and I have had some really good consecutive days Chub fishing on the same swim.

I must get back onto the Stour more next season as it has been along time since my last visit.
Maybe we can organise a Wessex Lads day out?

Nigel Connor(ACA ,SAA) · Apr 16, 2004

I'd echo Dave's sentiments regarding the Avon dace in the eighties.I remember taking several on cubes of Meat on the Royalty they were that greedy & there was no point in using casters etc at all as they were ragged in seconds.

This Season though, unlike for Dave, they were notable by their absence. I suspect they were shoaled up very tightly with the low flows & levels.This was borne out when I had one a very good day at Winkton where I had several up to about 12oz.

As for keepnets, I'm not really comfortable with using them these days. I had a few nice Chub bags from the Avon this winter & found that if you released them a little downstream then the bites continued.I'm probably a little oversensitive on this issue perhaps.

The Avon is of course just one river & as Ron states, the northern rivers seem to have a good stock in places.Certainly the River Lea outside my office in Hertford seems to have a very large number of smallish fish topping at the moment.

I'd certainly be up for a upper Thames fish in, Mark.

Mark Wintle · Apr 16, 2004

Upper Thames Fish-in.

One saturday early July?
Possible venues
Medley, Clifton Hampden, Newbridge, Tadpole?
All day ticket.

A friendly get together to fish for roach, perch, chub.

Better ideas?

jason fisher · Apr 16, 2004

thames fish in possibly
it depends on 2 factors

if i've moved to manchester completely an if i can get the time off work.
clifton hampden is where i had the last day of the season fish in.
so jeff already knows the stretch. he's fished it. ad i know it quite well mainly because i've fished it 3 times per week all last summer and autumn.

jason fisher · Apr 16, 2004

an if my photo's turn up there will be an article on the stretch coming soon too.

Wolfman Woody · Apr 16, 2004

Yes CH or Medley - not too bothered, all good reaches.

Saturday or Sunday? Sunday popular with matches, depends on the stretch. Perhaps a word with a local club. They wouldn't have to set it aside.

Jason - who are the local clubs?

Mark Wintle · Apr 16, 2004

Jeff,

Saturday is probably the best bet. Oxford DAA is the club for Clifton and Medley. Clifton is the scenic place with the features though Medley has some amazing fish! Day Tickets from Fat Phil's in Abingdon Road Oxford.

Might have to start a new thread to get one or two more, and set a date.

jason fisher · Apr 17, 2004

port meadow /medley its oxford and district i think, they're a bit funny they don't do their own book. the cheepest is ?8 per year from jk bicester.
the other side fof the bridge from where we first parked up in the hail storm is also odaa waters 60lb chub bags from there but very peggy an thats 10 fish for the 60lb.

clifton there's the free bit we went on, but spaces on there in july are pretty scarce, or the far bank that we fished on the fish in. which believe me looks absolutely stunning further up, you'll have to ask mr nellist for confirmation on that though.
or there's my perch swim or, my chub/bream swim from the far bank.
?30 for the year or ?5 per day abingdon and oxford anglers alliance.
the clifton stretch is the better perch, dace, roach and barbel stretch good chub fishing but not the largest in oxfordshire here.
wol would be proud of some fish from here and gary knowles ones are tiddlers if you see what i mean.

Ashe Hurst · Apr 28, 2004

The cray is oozing with quality Dace. Most stretches contain them and the EA fisheries report 2003 will confirm that.

Often chub present or near by, only yesterday, the Cray was boiling with spawning Roah & bream, yet the Dace still hung about.

The Ravensborn River through Ladywell & catford in South london contains a few nice Dace. Even as we cleared Trolleys & Pallets from the deeper pools, the dace did not shy away.

John Hepworth · May 3, 2004

Spotted a big shoal of dace just below the weirs at Durham, on the Wear Sunday afternoon. Some looked very big as well.
Did't get them confused with the chub as it will be some weeks before they start to shoal on the river.
By the upper Swale, I presume Ron is talking below Richmond.

Nigel Connor(ACA ,SAA) · May 3, 2004

John,

I suspect in the Catterick area.As you'll know above Richmond is largely trout/grayling territory & I believe largely fly only.

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