Catfish

[tigger]

I don’t condone stocking catfish but they are here, and I believe here to stay. It would be impossible to remove them from a river system once they have become established.

They have been caught by dedicated catfish anglers in the Thames and recently from the Medway too.

This is from a local f/b site. Most go unreported and under the radar.

How about this large ide?

River Medway shock coarse fish caught from boat

Nick Byworth thought he’d caught a massive chub hybrid, but then realised it was a cracking 7 lb 2 oz ide.

www.advnture.com

Would you stamp on that. Is the angler who caught it wrong to have returned it?


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Comparing an ide to a wels catfish is just being stupid.

Regarding otters, i'm all for them, they are a genuine part of the wildlife in the uk. Here's hoping they chew on the wels catfish.

 

[Windy]

Those differing concise* posts about catfish from Windy and Philip above, I feel like I want to add a 'like' to both yet one has to be wrong

Or does it?

No, I dont think it does.

My post was about the effects of introduction of Catfish to a water that as far as I know did not have any native population until they were first introduced by German anglers to the Rio Segre in the 1970s, or the reservoir of Mequinenza in 1974, depending on which source you believe. Other Googles and suggested origins are available...

The report that I posted was taken from a seasoned professional reporting his personal experience of observations over decades, week in week out on the river with his clients. A knowledgeable and authoritative source of information.

His account details the progress of the initial effects of Catfish introduction to a very temperate river with an enormous head of potential food and no previous Catfish population, nothing more.

Philip's post in contrast (as I read it, please feel free to correct me if I have it wrong) sets out the conclusions of an assessment of the integration of an established native population of Catfish in the slightly cooler South West of France. An assessment and account I have no reason to doubt.

Given time I would anticipate that the Ebro will also and eventually reach a similar level of integration and accommodation with the other native fish species. Especially in the light of my informant's observations the last time we met in 2016 that many large Catfish were dying for apparent lack of food and that the Carp and other silver fish population were showing signs of a mild resurgence.

How long it will take for there to be a balance achieved I have no idea, but I suspect it may be a matter of decades rather than years. On the other hand the growth rates in such a huge and warm river are an order of magnitude greater than anything we experience here in cold, grey and damp old blighty.

In passing I understand from other reading over the years that the main predator for Catfish is Catfish... which explains why, in an established and balanced population, the big boys keep the population down by eating the Kittens. In the Ebro, when first introduced, there would have been no equivalent population of young Catfish and no need to eat them, given the huge feast on offer.

* "Concise..." Sarky bugger. There is a reason for my nickname you know, and it's not because I am a weather Jonah !

 

[Keith M]

The only good thing that the Wells Catfish have done in our Estate lake is wipe out the Turkish Crays which found their way downstream into our lake around 20 odd years previous to the cats and our banks are no longer being eroded by the Crays burrowing into them.

Someone illegally stocked Cats into several of our local lakes a few years ago and even though our club tries to remove them (as instructed by the water authorities) they are still occasionally caught in our lake up to 43lb (so far) and it’s not unknown for someone to catch the occasional very small kitten too.

Our Carp numbers haven’t appeared to have gone down either although the silver fish in the lake seem to get thinner in numbers each year.

NB: The once British Record Wells Catfish was caught from a reservoir in Tring Hertfordshire back in the 70s or 80s so they have been here for quite a while now.

Keith

 

[Windy]

...the growth rates in such a huge and warm river are an order of magnitude greater than anything we experience here in cold, grey and damp old blighty.

Which is why I might tactfully suggest that the rush to panic is perhaps overstated. As Keith points out they have been here in isolated limited populations for quite some time now, with no sign of a size, predation and population explosion equivalent to the disastrous Ebro experience.

Main thing for me is the lack of any substantial report of Kittens being caught in waters with big Catfish known to be present. That to me perhaps indicates lower spawning success rates in our colder climate, plus Mum 'n Dad doing the job of keeping the kids under control. Certainly on the waters we used to frequent on our past Catfish fish-ins there were big Cats present but no lack of very decent Carp, silver fish or anything else. If there had been any sign of a disastrous lack of integration I suspect the site owners would have been out with the clonkers and electrofish stun wands to clean them out. Here's hoping anyway...

 

[no-one in particular]

My feeling reading all this we all might as well all give up. Might as well just let it all happened, the illegal introductions, the sanctioned introductions, the invasions, the TV vanity projects etc. etc.; there is just no end to it; just a losing battle, we cannot stop any of it, is it worth trying anymore.?

 

[Keith M]

Of coarse it’s worth still trying to limit the waters they are found in, and removing them, otherwise the idiots who illegally stock them into every lake they fish in will eventually win and we will end up having them everywhere to the detriment of our native fish species.

Not to mention any deseases that the Catfish could be carrying when illegally stocked.

Keith

 

[Philip]

I think its worth talking some more about the Ebro as people appear to be trying to use that as some sort of average reference point to demonstrate what happens when Wels get in a water...when in reality its probably nearer to the worst case scenario which is the whole reason I mentioned it on this thread in the first place.

The second rather massive point being missed is “The Ebro” is 580 miles long so I find it rather doubtful, read –impossible- to accept anyone who says its devoid of anything but Catfish.

If we want to talk about anecdotal evidence then literally a 5min google found these. I have not read them in detail & I imagine there are holes to pick at but its just to demonstrate how things can appear depending on what you want to hear…

2011

News Stories | News | Angling Times

Get your News Stories fix with Angling Times. Keep up to date with all the latest News news, with exclusive features, stories, videos, and opinion pieces.

www.anglingtimes.co.uk

2012

Alternative River Ebro part 1 – zander, roach & carp

It must be the best part of two decades since I first gazed at photos of John Wilson et al posing with huge catfish they’d caught from the Ebro. I’ve wanted to fish there ever ...

www.just-fish.co.uk

2013

Dan Sales Amazing Spanish Roach | Drennan International

Herts specimen angler Dan Sales is also an experienced guide on the famous River Ebro in Spain – and sent us these amazing Roach photos from a recent trip! Dan has just returned from a 3 week stint where he guided several well known anglers, the final week of the... Read more

www.drennantackle.com

2016

Three Friends and a Boat...... - On The Ebro

Now this is one week I’ve been looking forward too, the return of two very good friends from school who also this year are reaching the tender age of 21…… again!!! Phil H and Phil D had both visited here back in 2006 and 7…… things have changed so much since, but our goal forRead more

www.ontheebro.co.uk

2019
Fishing allstars program on the Ebro

Those articles cover the periods being cited as apocalyptic. There are LOTS of others.
Now I don’t doubt the people hearing the stories are being told them in good faith or even that the stories are not true. However could it be that the reality is that they are being based on some very specific sections of a massive river at specific moments in its history that paint the worst possible picture. When the reality is that the river, like any other, goes through cycles with one species becoming dominant then dropping off again before the cycle restarts ?

Who knows ! As with anything in fishing I take it with a pinch of salt nowadays till I see it for myself.

 

[Windy]

I think its worth talking some more about the Ebro...
“The Ebro” is 580 miles long so I find it rather doubtful, read –impossible- to accept anyone who says its devoid of anything but Catfish.
However could it be that the reality is that they are being based on some very specific sections of a massive river at specific moments in its history that paint the worst possible picture.

Point taken and even agreed with.

One of the things I noted when Googling extensively on the subject over the last four or five years (having taken an interest) is that there is apparently a dirty great big dam dividing the river into pre and post Catfish populations. Though I haven't quite been able to work out if it is a problem upstream or downstream of the dam or dams in question...

I've never visited or fished the river myself, simply relating the report of a believed to be reliable primary source. Better brains than mine will know better than me, over to the fish scientists.

 

[tigger]

The chub population of the middle Severn would beg to differ.

No idea how you make that out as chub and barbel thrive together in the rivers I fish. I often catch them shoaled up together in the same swims.

 

[Philip]

Philip's post in contrast (as I read it, please feel free to correct me if I have it wrong) sets out the conclusions of an assessment of the integration of an established native population of Catfish in the slightly cooler South West of France

Not really. It was not a native population. Its open to conjecture but Catfish really only became established in France from around the 1970s and in the South West not until the Early 90s. Thats not a dig btw, I liked your post allot.

 

[no-one in particular]

Of coarse it’s worth still trying to limit the waters they are found in, and removing them, otherwise the idiots who illegally stock them into every lake they fish in will eventually win and we will end up having them everywhere to the detriment of our native fish species.

Keith

Is it a losing battle though? !!
I mean for years we have been trying to keep our waters "carp" free, cormorant free, zander free, otter free, crayfish free and so on and we have not stopped one of them; even the EA can do nothing about them. And we might be adding to that fish eagles and beavers soon and we will lose that one as well for sure.

And another thought has occurred to me, just generalizing a bit but, everyone on here basically hates any change that has happened since they were 15. Commercials, carp waters, catfish, crayfish, zander, bait boats, bombs, you name it....I expect I could think of a few more; there is a pattern emerging. Is all this just an age thing, oldens hating all the change that has happened to their fishing since they were 15 when it was all perfect and just how they liked it, will there be 60 year old's in 60 years time reminiscing about the great catfish days and moaning about all the xy fish taking over everything. Just a thought, don't kill me.

 

[Philip]

Point taken and even agreed with.

One of the things I noted when Googling extensively on the subject over the last four or five years (having taken an interest) is that there is apparently a dirty great big dam dividing the river into pre and post Catfish populations. Though I haven't quite been able to work out if it is a problem upstream or downstream of the dam or dams in question...

I've never visited or fished the river myself, simply relating the report of a believed to be reliable primary source. Better brains than mine will know better than me, over to the fish scientists.

Thats exactly what I was thinking myself. Perhaps its partly due to dammed sections splitting it up & a very large head of cats trapped as such...but I'm guessing.

I dont claim to be any kind of expert but I have fished it and it was not for Catfish. I didnt have any problems catching those other fish.

 

[108831]

I just don't get it,on the Ebro cats 'seem' to have done irreparable damage,but on French rivers and lakes the other fish thrive regardless of them,the venues I've fished with wels in are prolific,with good heads of both large and small fish,the cats are not a doomsday scenario in most cases,so maybe the Ebro situation was not just a catfish induced problem,anyway do I fully trust scientists with solving environmental problems,definitely not..

 

[theartist]

* "Concise..." Sarky bugger. There is a reason for my nickname you know, and it's not because I am a weather Jonah !

To be fair I was this close to asking whether you made it rain in Spain

Also I actually meant to say comprehensive not concise oops, sorry 'bout that I always get them two words confused, apologies to both yourself and Philip

 

[Ray Roberts]

The picture at the front of this thread isn’t me by the way. I nicked it off of faceache to illustrate my earlier post.


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[silvers]

No idea how you make that out as chub and barbel thrive together in the rivers I fish. I often catch them shoaled up together in the same swims.

This whole thread is an illustration of the fact that every single ecosystem is both dynamic and unique (not to mention connected to all other ecosystems).
i can certainly point to rivers where chub populations crashed over the same period that barbel populations grew - but that is correlation not necessarily causation. Eg. great Ouse, Trent, middle Severn ... even the Wye to some extent. Equally, my local stretch of the Warks Avon has both in abundance .... but chub have virtually disappeared from the lower river like Evesham.
I’ve also observed barbel hoovering up eggs behind spawning chub ... although I suspect that many fish species take easy pickings when available.

 

[rob48]

No idea how you make that out as chub and barbel thrive together in the rivers I fish. I often catch them shoaled up together in the same swims.

There were no barbel in the Severn until the Angling Times stocked some at Bewdley, late 1950s I think. The river was noted for the large chub and dace catches from Shrewsbury downstream to Stourport. Twenty five years later match weights went from zero barbel to over 100lb of them, all along the river. The barbel didn't grow and reproduce at such a rate without eating something, which happened to be most of the stuff the chub and dace had thrived on, together with their spawn.
From being a prolific chub venue the river became almost devoid of them, with them and the dace only surviving in pockets not favoured by the barbel.

 

[tigger]

There were no barbel in the Severn until the Angling Times stocked some at Bewdley, late 1950s I think. The river was noted for the large chub and dace catches from Shrewsbury downstream to Stourport. Twenty five years later match weights went from zero barbel to over 100lb of them, all along the river. The barbel didn't grow and reproduce at such a rate without eating something, which happened to be most of the stuff the chub and dace had thrived on, together with their spawn.
From being a prolific chub venue the river became almost devoid of them, with them and the dace only surviving in pockets not favoured by the barbel.

Yeah, can't argue that they had to eat something and yeah, they will be eating pretty much the same as the chub, although they will get a lot more food from the substrate that the chub won't be able to get at.
Chub will benefit from eating barbel spaw, i've witnessed both chub and barbel (together) eating spawn from spawning barbel. Also, chub are more carnivorous and will readily consume barbel fry and young barbel. So they get those benifits back. Chub will beat barbel to food ten times out of ten, so will not be pushed to the back of the dining que!
At the end of the day chub and barbel are two species of fish which do get on together.

 

[rob48]

At the end of the day there were hardly any chub left in the middle Severn, and other rivers, as silvers states above.

 

[108831]

Chub also munch on barbel spawn,fact,the issues maybe more to do with spawning success on rivers for each species,especially on many rivers barbel struggle to spawn successfully and numbers are far lower on these rivers,I can remember fishing the Ouse at Radwell,Sharnbrook,Felmersham,Milton Earnest and Bletsoe when it was something to talk about for weeks if a chub got caught,then suddenly the river was chocabloc with chublets,a few years later the river became a fantastic chub fishery,with bags of chub being caught throughout the stretches,now those chub have thinned out and fish of 7/8lbs are caught,fish populations are cyclical,one good year can produce fantastic fishing for a species for twenty years,we can only stand back and watch nature go through its changes....