Fishing Cruel? Never!

[Mark St Jefferson]

Any story that promotes the best sides of fishing is worth pushing Graham, especialy if you can get it into a non-angling press. I think a story like yours stands on its own merits just for the sheer bizarness of it and if it were me I would push stories like that on that front and let the public make their own minds up on the latter. (but then you are the journalist.... not me

I am personaly not totaly convinced you will ever swing an argument on the pain front. It seems like trying to break down a wall with your head.

For instance: I have kept tropical and coldwater fish for some years, and a long while ago, before heater protective covers were available, I had a catfish that decided to wedge itself behind the heater untill it had burnt itself literaly to the bone. I removed the amazingly still living specimin and transfered it to a brackish tank and over time it healed itself (as fish do) and eventualy it was well enough to be returned to the original tank. Only to do exactly the same thing again two days later, so you don't have to try and convince me that fish are not quite there when it comes to pain reaction.

I tried to use this as an argument to someone trying to shout me down about 'the cruelty of angling' and all I got was harrassment for keeping fish in the first place and allowing the thing to burn itself, as if I would do such a thing!!!.

BTW at the time I constructed a protective cage for the heater out of a bunch of old cage feeders wired together --- wish I'd thought to patent it now---)

What I mean is: If the likes of PETA feel they are losing the 'fishing is cruel because it hurts the fish' line, all they will do is find other angles to push their version of ideas on, ie damage to local wildlife, damage to the countryside etc etc.
They may not be that bright as individuals, but they are pure experts when it comes to slicing news reports and wording stuff untill it shocks and sticks in the publics mind.

Our best defence is to not neccessarily attack them directly (IMO) but to try and do whatever we can wherever we can to promote the good we can and often do do. Follow this with good stories on fishing like you often do, and not publishing pictures of nets full of mouth damaged fish, or displayed fish so far from the water, particuarly on warm dry days (not much chance of that at the moment) in other words any picture that could be used against us, and we will always be ahead of them.

 

[Wendy Perry]

that what you just wrote Mark is so so true !!!

 

[william kirkwood]

In my previous life I used to be a tench
and although Igot caught 2 or 3 times I DID NOT FEEL ANY PAIN

 

[GrahamM]

Excellent points Mark, and a good example of fish 'pain' with the catfish.

What we're really up against is ignorance. No matter how close to the water you hold a fish it is still, 'oh, that poor fish, gasping its last breath.' And that's if it's on an unhooking mat or not. People see only what they want to see.

And like I've said so many times, when it comes to the crunch we're still left with trying to justify sticking a hook in a fish and pulling it from the water against its will.

No harm at all in promoting all the good in angling and being seen to handle fish with 'kid gloves', but we're still left with sinking cold steel into their mouths and pulling them, against their will, into an atmosphere that would eventually kill them.

We have to explain why that is not doing them any harm and why they don't feel pain when it happens.

That's the bottom line, the crux of it all, no matter how we dress it up.

 

[Dan Hartburn]

Rodney,
The point I was trying to make about compulsory tuition before a rod licence is issued, is that it will teach anglers to take better care of fish and their environments. That way the Antis and consequently the press will have much less ammo to fire on those of us who do take care.
Also, tuition should be more available to the young and old all over the country.
I intend to go Piking on my local free stretch of the Dorset Stour. Now, I would feel less apprehensive when I catch my first Pike if I had some tuition. Although, I feel have done enough research to cope.

Hope this clarifies my opinion.

Dan.

 

[Rodney Wrestt]

Dan,
Point taken, I understand what you are saying, I didn't mean to sound like I was rubbishing your idea I was just saying that some people don't care and think that rules are for breaking. I agree that pike fishing is much easier if you are confident in your ability to handle any situation that may arise and that I would (and have done in the past) suggest a novice go with an experienced predator angler to learn how to handle, unhook and release them.

 

[Mark St Jefferson]

I see your point Graham and agree that it is an argument that must be won in the long run, but these groups are increadibly proficient at slicing reports and re-editing press releases untill they say what they want and shock the way they want.

For example if I took your well crafted story and turned it around a bit, it could suggest you and Davey look like a pair cruel sadists who perpetualy caught and recaught the same fish.
How you persecuted it untill it was so far past the point of exaustion it didn't know what it was doing anymore.
Arguing that because the fish had used up all it's energies in an endless struggle for its life and that it was obviously so desperate to eat something, anything to replenish its heavily depleted reserves it went for the first thing that passed its nose without taking its safety into account, and how these two anglers who supposedly love fish endlesly targeted the same fish, even to the point of dangling food in front of it whilst it lay in the margins worn out and totaly exhausted after yet another capture, another dice with death, being forced to near suffacation and the burning hands of it's captors whilst they photographed it like two sick hunters gloating over their prey.

This isn't a dig at you or Davey Graham -- I know you two are not like that but that is how the likes of PETA work their stories.

I could post you some examples that I had via a mail list I am on with the likes of PETA on another front (cats and cat food companies) and how a real ex-lab researcher showed the press releases for what they were, and how they very cleverly word things to shock (better than I did up there) but I don't think it would be apropriate on this forum, (but would happily do so privatley if you wish--- just to show how good this lot are at what they do---)

Don't get me wrong, I agree we have to show that PETA don't have their facts right when it comes to catching fish and the pain they feel, but as Martin originaly pointed out it is something I think we have to be very carefull of.

 

[Ian grant]

Hi Graham, everybody, here are my thoughts on the subject.

I doubt very much if fish feel pain, at least not in the way we do, I would think they must have the capability to feel, but again probably not in the way we do, or they would not, react in the way they do to being hooked. These differences must be due to the fact we are warm blooded they are cold, and must in someway affect the makeup of our central nervous systems, for instance, if a fish felt pain as we know it, it would spend 5 months of the year in torturous agony from the effects of cold water, we all know the feeling of keeping our hands in cold water for any length of time, it's agony, it's inconceivable that a fish would feel pain in that way, which is why I think the catfish felt no pain from the heater element in its tank, all fish react to warmth, and even though it was actually being burnt - it may have actually found the sensation pleasurable, or logically, asuming it wasn't trapped it would have moved! I believe fish react in the way they do upon being hooked, because they feel something is obviously not right, they are being forced to go where they don't want to, try taking hold of a cat's tail, grip it firmly but gently and apply gentle pressure pulling the cat's tail towards you, you most definitely are not inflicting pain on the animal, but my guess is the cat's reaction will not be favourable, possibly even violent! Because, being the type of creature it is, its instinct tells it something is very wrong and will do everything in its power to rid itself of the nuisance. All cold blooded creatures including fish must have some kind of sensory input into their nervous system I believe, it's what makes all living creatures tick, but the sensation of pain would i think make a fishes existance untenable. in conclusion, when we hook a fish does it feel it? I think so - does it hurt?
I'm positive it doesn't.

On the PeTA issue, I agree, the way forward is not just to defend ourselves, and we must - but to vigourously attack them, using the same metheods that they use against us namely the media. The public must be made aware of what they stand for, and the crazy lifestyle we would all be leading if they had their way -they would like to impose their will in ways such as:- the abolishment of,

ALL FIELD SPORTS (INCLUDING CLAY SHOOTING)

THE SLAUGHTERING OF ANIMALS FOR ANY
REASON WHATSOEVER

THE USE OF LIVESTOCK FOR THE PRODUCE
OF EGGS MILK ETC.

THE KEEPING OF ANY CAPTIVE ANIMALS
INCLUDING FAMILY PETS

THE USE OF ANY METHODS TO CONTROL
VERMIN AND PESTS - INCLUDING I THINK
INSECTS.

The list goes on and on,life as we know it would no longer exist if they had their way - you couldn't even say they would send us back to the stoneage, most of the above was practised then, they transgress every law of nature as the abominations they are, life under the Taliban would seem blissful compared to the regime they would have us all living under if they had their way.

 

[GrahamM]

Okay, let's open up this discussion some more.

If it was proved to you, fellow angler, beyond doubt, that fish CAN feel pain, that (as John Bailey keeps telling us) fish get stressed and traumatised when caught, would you stop fishing?

And I won't duck the question myself - No, I wouldn't stop fishing. I can't, it's my life and always has been.

 

[Mark St Jefferson]

Very good question Graham.

And NO! I wouldn't stop, I don't think I could.

At the end of it all Fishing is a form of hunting, no matter which way you paint it. The only diference being most fish are put back to live and fight another day, not just against other anglers, but all the other forces of nature.

I personaly think we are all pretty much certain that no matter what we do, it WILL cause the fish some stress and a certain amount of trauma, although just how much will always be arguable. (Unless one of you can speak Pike and converse with it enough to find out for sure, and even then you would have to ask a large cross section of the Pike population to be sure).

Taking this into account, many will hopefully continue in what is more than just a hobby, to many it is a way of life. (Your other thread - Why do we fish covers that)

However, many of us will adapt our fishing to take new findings into account. We change our hooks, nets and weights, we obtain unhooking mats, tunnels and even antiseptic creams for our piscine friends. Some because they have to, but many because they will do whatever it takes to improve the well being of our quarry and make their time in our hands as stress-free as we can.

 

[Martin Wright]

No I wouldn't stop either. Personally I do think there's some stress or trauma (but probably not pain as we know it) but since I'm not positive I wouldn't dream of forcing my opinion on others.

At the end of the day I do everything I can to minimise any suffering to the fish but look at it this way - the fish goes back in having had an unpleasant experience but still very much alive - well we all have bad days don't we!

Alternatively a fish like trout or salmon get biffed on the head and noshed - nothing wrong there.

What about the argument then that fishing is a blood sport and we do it for our own enjoyment and it's therefore cruel. If anybody who eats meat or fish (vast majority of public) puts that to you simply point out to them that they don't NEED to eat meat - they do it because they enjoy it!!!

 

[Wendy Perry]

i couldn't give it up either it's like a drug it really is if i can't go fishing for some reason i get really frustrated and after the day i had on Sat it's days like that ...that keep you going but i really don't think that the fish are in any pain at all.

 

[Ian Grant]

No graham i wouldn't stop fishing,even if i
thought the fish felt pain,which i don't,but
lets not kid ourselves,the fish do not like
being caught,or they would not react the way
they do,its the reason-or part of it that i fish,i enjoy the fight,which must stress the
fish,any angler who denies that fact,ARE
KIDDING THEMSELVES,Graham mentions john bailey,-i often wonder about this guy,it seems to me he's racked with guilt every
time he hooks a fish,the poor chap must lie awake at night worrying himself silly incase he injured or hurt the fish he caught that day,-if you read or hear of my comments john,my intention is not to insult you in any way,but the way you come across
is that you have a terrible conflict of
consience,to make comments such as using
hair rigs is unesecarily stressing fish,is
just stupid,and writing such drivel not only gives the anti's ammo,it sabotages
fishing-MY fishing! over the years iv'e
watched johns' writing lean ever further in
this direction,and it's begining to look
like peta could not have a better ally than
john bailey,the damage you do to fishings
image john -in the eyes of the public-,is
considerable.representives of peta need only quote some of your writings in coarse-
fisherman to claim vindication of their
policys,be honest with yourself if you find
the practices that are inherent to our sport distasteful give it up,i would.
in a nutshell what i'm saying is,yes preach
all you like about fish welfare,the reason
i take great care of the fish i catch is
that i want it to be there for someone else
to catch,and to go on and breed more of it's kind,so i can catch it's kin.if i had to wrestle with my concience every time i
caught a fish,i would not inflict the burden upon myself,if you must write john,
and your ability to do that well is not in question,remember who might be reading it,
it might not just be anglers,but very happy
antis'.

 

[Andrew Miller]

Years ago I was lurefishing on the river with my dog. The dog used to get pretty excited while waiting for me to cast. I wasn't watching him while I was waiting to cast my lure across the river and he leapt up and took the lure in his mouth,one of the treble went through his tongue but he stood patiently while I snipped the treble off and removed it from his tongue. I thought he would have learnt his lesson but on my very next cast he tried to go for it again! Obviously not to be recommended at all and frightened the living daylight out of me!! But if this pain factor is so important why did the dog stayed still for me to remove that treble and if it was so stressful why did he keep going after the lure again and again Windy

 

[Wendy Perry]

Windy you have a crazy dog lol

 

[Paul Williams]

Lurefishing with your dog Windy!....how did you mount it? teehee......on a more serious note, i don't believe fish feel pain or suffer undue stress when captured, but if i thought they did i would still fish, as Graham said it's a way of life and it's in the blood.
Another point, without anglers i reckon that most of our rivers would be nothing more than poluted drains devoid of any wildlife exept for rats, we are without any doubt first line gaurdians......peta are just fat rich kids who think they know something but know nothing, in fact i doubt if some of them have ever left the city!!!