mikench
Well-known member
Cheers Phil; cracking fish.
Hybrids
- Thread starter mikench
- Start date
Yes that jogged my memory too he did mention a really big he caught over 8lb.
Ide tend to spawn in colder water so earlier than allot of other similar fish so I think hybrids in the wild are concidered as rare. However I have caught some very bizzare looking fish that I would say were part ide. I also know a place on a river were every spring I can go to see ide spawning and although they are early there is certainly overlap.
The hybrid I recon you should all be worried about is a Prussian x Crucian ....everyone is focused on brown goldfish when it comes to Crucians but as I understand it even DNA cant separate a Prussian / Crucian cross yet....although I would be very interested if anyone knows otherswise..
Prussians are very common just across the channel and are like a Crucian on steriods & grow allot bigger. To my mind they could easily adapt to the UK climate. I am surprised we dont see more of them caught in the Uk -yet-.
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Mark Wintle
Well-known member
Please, please, please do NOT use the term 'Prussian carp'!
There are three species that are similar in Europe; crucians, goldfish and gibel carp (what you are refering to as 'Prussian carp' but the Victorians refered to goldfish (and possibly their hybrids) as 'Prussian carp' so people looking at old books think that gibel carp have been in the UK for 200+ years. They haven't.
There is evidence that gibel carp which have been spreading westwards across Europe for decades, often called 'carrasio' (previously the name for crucians).
Peter Rolfe and myself have been catching fish that we couldn't quite figure out (Peter is pretty much the UK expert on crucians) from a local water since 2007, and it was only in early 2019 that I took some scale samples to be tested. The evidence points to these fish being gibel carp and the matter is now with the EA for further investigation. Gibel carp may well be in other UK waters as they are hard to identify especially given the various hybrids we have ie crucian x goldfish, goldfish x carp, crucian x goldfish.
sam vimes
Well-known member
An old mate of mine is now very active on the South West (and beyond) match circuit. He is increasingly referring to catching bags of "carassio". I've no idea whether they really mean crucians, brown goldfish, gibels or some kind of hybrid. The water that seems to commonly referenced is Pollawyn at Whiteacres.
The bad one
Well-known member
I’ve been reluctant to post this because of my Failing Memory Syndrome (vernacular, Old Age) and I can’t remember which way round it works. But the tenure of what’s written is correct.
Many years ago, close on 50, I did a short fishery management course at Manchester University run by a Dr Chris Goldspink. Chris whilst doing his PhD did it in Holland and at place called Tjeukemeer studying bream and roach movements, spawning habitats, etc. Chris did works at MMU (my Uni) in the Biology Dept in later years and may well be retired now.
As a result of his and others studies it was discovered that hybridisation came about through bad weather at spawning time. As the fish gather on the spawning grounds and both roach and bream can and do use the same grounds. One species, roach, come in first to spawn as their spawning water temperature is lower than bream. Under normal water temperatures the female roach spawn and the eggs are fertilised by the males, both sexes then move off the spawning ground before the bream move on to it.
However, if the weather turns bad and particularly cold, the females do not shed their eggs, but hang around on the spawning grounds until the water temperature rises. If the time they spend waiting for the temperature lift runs into weeks, the water temperature can and does over this period rise very quickly, as the length of the days increases and the heat of the sun gets stronger/warmer the later it gets into spring.
Now here’s the sketchy part due FMS, I can’t remember whether it’s the male bream come in first and fertilise the eggs of the female roach, or whether the female bream come in first and the male roach fertilise their eggs. Whichever it is, hybridisation takes place and we get a cross of both species. The greater the temperature variance between the two species spawning, the rarer the hybrid of both will be. I think this is what happens on the Ribble and Choach (Chub X Roach) as they are very rare and all about the same size/weight when they’re caught, suggesting they are all from the same year class.
So there it is, hybridisation in a nutshell!
Many years ago, close on 50, I did a short fishery management course at Manchester University run by a Dr Chris Goldspink. Chris whilst doing his PhD did it in Holland and at place called Tjeukemeer studying bream and roach movements, spawning habitats, etc. Chris did works at MMU (my Uni) in the Biology Dept in later years and may well be retired now.
As a result of his and others studies it was discovered that hybridisation came about through bad weather at spawning time. As the fish gather on the spawning grounds and both roach and bream can and do use the same grounds. One species, roach, come in first to spawn as their spawning water temperature is lower than bream. Under normal water temperatures the female roach spawn and the eggs are fertilised by the males, both sexes then move off the spawning ground before the bream move on to it.
However, if the weather turns bad and particularly cold, the females do not shed their eggs, but hang around on the spawning grounds until the water temperature rises. If the time they spend waiting for the temperature lift runs into weeks, the water temperature can and does over this period rise very quickly, as the length of the days increases and the heat of the sun gets stronger/warmer the later it gets into spring.
Now here’s the sketchy part due FMS, I can’t remember whether it’s the male bream come in first and fertilise the eggs of the female roach, or whether the female bream come in first and the male roach fertilise their eggs. Whichever it is, hybridisation takes place and we get a cross of both species. The greater the temperature variance between the two species spawning, the rarer the hybrid of both will be. I think this is what happens on the Ribble and Choach (Chub X Roach) as they are very rare and all about the same size/weight when they’re caught, suggesting they are all from the same year class.
So there it is, hybridisation in a nutshell!
no-one in particular
Well-known member
Have any experiments been done under laboratory conditions to see which species can cross fertilize, there must be a can and cannots not just possibles.
Mark Wintle
Well-known member
Yes, but what has been achieved in a lab doesn't always translate into the wild. Bream x chub in the lab but not in the wild for example. I have a copy of the Pitt's paper on this.
To add to Phil's post, lack of discrete spawning grounds due to dredging and weed removal contributes to the incidence of hybrids. Similarly, in many Irish waters the large cold loughs have inlet streams as spawning grounds so mixed populations cram into them resulting in prolific hybrids.
Mark Wintle
Well-known member
Part 2 should now be on Youtube: Hybrids Part 2 - Roach hybrids
Interesting stuff. .
As far as I am aware Gibel and Prussian Carp are the same thing with the same Latin name right ?
If that’s the case then I recon your going to have an uphill struggle trying to stop people using both terms because the Victorians got it wrong in a book 200 years ago
Actually from my perspective the name is neither Prussian or Gibel…its Carrassin which is the name most French anglers give them & as it will vary country by country the best way to avoid all doubt in that case would be to use the Latin name.
I guess the bottom line here is, are the EA been able to identify Gibel DNA in a potential hybrid Scale sample ? …if they cant then it throws a rather large doubt in the works for anyone fishing for what they believe are true Crucians...especially as it looks increasingly likly Gibel are already present in the UK.
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Mark Wintle
Well-known member
Prussian carp were goldfish without the ornamental colouring.Interesting stuff. .
As far as I am aware Gibel and Prussian Carp are the same thing with the same Latin name right ?
If that’s the case then I recon your going to have an uphill struggle trying to stop people using both terms because the Victorians got it wrong in a book 200 years ago
Actually from my perspective the name is neither Prussian or Gibel…its Carrassin which is the name most French anglers give them & as it will vary country by country the best way to avoid all doubt in that case would be to use the Latin name.
I guess the bottom line here is, are the EA been able to identify Gibel DNA in a potential hybrid Scale sample ? …if they cant then it throws a rather large doubt in the works for anyone fishing for what they believe are true Crucians...especially as it looks increasingly likly Gibel are already present in the UK.
What has happened in France and Italy is that the name given to crucians which are probably rare in both countries, carrassin and carrassio in France and Italy respectively, is being applied to the now far more common gibels (and possibly brown goldfish), a bit like those who call silver bream 'hybrids' in the UK.
As far as I know without spending the next week talking to the UK experts in the UK (might raise it at the next National Crucian Conservation Project meeting), yes, DNA can be used to distinguish gibel carp and their hybrids from crucian carp.
mikench
Well-known member
It’s fascinating and educational . Thanks to all who responded to this thread.
The naming of this species appears to be in some disarray.
I wont claim to have exhausted every avenue but every reference I find to Prussian Carp gives it the same latin name as Gibel Carp….both are Carassius gibelio
While Goldfish appear to be Carassius auratus
As well as France I have caught them in Italy and the local anglers there were referring ot them as Carpa di Prussia so basically it looks like no one can agree !
I don’t doubt the term Prussian may have been attributed to Brown goldfish in the past but it appears to be hopelessly out of date today.
Where you are spot on is with reference to the problem of the name “Carrassin” being used in France..well spotted !
This is something I have brought up a few times over here as I recon that’s the name for a Crucian Carp yet everyone calls them “Carrassin”. I have asked some very clued up French anglers if they are aware of other names for example variations on ”Gibel” or “Prussian” but its drawn a blank.
True Crucians as you mention are pretty rare so I am puzzled why or how the name Carrassin would have come about in the first place but whatever the reason, its the name that’s stuck.
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Mark Wintle
Well-known member
Part 3 of my videos on hybrids: Hybrids part 3 - crucians and similar species/hybrids
mikench
Well-known member
Thank you Mark. It's a fascinating subject and I think I will, happily self delusional, call any fish I catch that looks like a crucian, struggles like a crucian , a crucian. For reasons which may be entirely attributable to my iPad, I found the volume on part 2 very low to the point of being inaudible. Part 3 was better. I thought I would mention it in passing.
Windy
Well-known member
Very interesting. Are Hybrids genetically viable, or sterile, as in many species / plants ?
Mark Wintle
Well-known member
It does seem that a few devices struggle with volume. Youtube removed the ability for the creator to alter the volume of uploaded content. I will be checking a few things to raise the volume without distortion in the future. I found that my computer microphone wasn't set to 100% for instance but there's a fair bit more I can do in editing.
It's worth learning to tell the difference between the true crucians and the impostors and generally not that hard - the simple checks of a scale count and that the dorsal is convex are a good start. Years ago I got caught out a few times, notably when I had a 3-7 fish at the end of the season that didn't quite look right. I didn't have a camera with me but a passing carp angler took a snap and promised to forward the print which he did 4 months later once he'd used the film and I saw that I'd had a big goldfish. Another couple of local waters had numerous small brown goldfish and their willingness to feed in the cold was a clue to them not being the real deal though it seems true crucians will feed in the cold in winter but in the middle of the night.
For Windy, see the first video on hybrids re fish hybrids post F1 breeding ability but in a nutshell, yes they can breed but low viability rates and slightly more chance of back crosses that F2s. See Hybrids Part 1
Another Dave
Well-known member
Really enjoying these videos Mark.
Many years ago we used to fish a gravel pit in Essex where it was impossible to fish maggot without catching a half ounce roach-bream hybrid, they were everywhere in their thousands. These fish were known locally as 'chats'. Apparently the word derives from a gypsy term 'half chat' which is used to describe people who are half gypsy.
Did anyone else catch 'chats' or was it a very local term?
Many years ago we used to fish a gravel pit in Essex where it was impossible to fish maggot without catching a half ounce roach-bream hybrid, they were everywhere in their thousands. These fish were known locally as 'chats'. Apparently the word derives from a gypsy term 'half chat' which is used to describe people who are half gypsy.
Did anyone else catch 'chats' or was it a very local term?
sam vimes
Well-known member
Never heard it used for a hybrid fish. I'm not especially convinced by the gypsy term explanation. However, whatever the origin of the term, I'm pretty sure that it will now be deemed as an offensive, racist term. It's certainly no longer a phrase that I'd expect to hear in public.
Another Dave
Well-known member
A quick look on google tells me it is definitely deemed offensive, and while some of the results refer to a gypsy origin many do not. However that doesn't interest me so much as finding out if this piece of angling dialect went any further than Boreham, Essex.