Where do they go in flood?

[Philip]

Now this is something I saw about thirty or more years ago, it was a lovely sunny day with no rain at all, and yet when we drove over the Ribble nr Clitheroe after lunch, we was surprised to see that the river was very high and coloured, there must have been a thunderstorm further up river earlier that day.

When we arrived at mitton bridge, a few miles down stream, the river was still low and clear, as the flood hadn’t reached here yet,so me and my workmate walked onto the bridge to watch.

The fish obviously knew what was coming as they were all lined up on either bank, chub and dace mainly with a few game fish as well ,all as close to the bank as they could get, looked like this was what they did when the river was going to flood.

That is a great bit of observation and well worth keeping in mind for a flooded river.

I suspect fish will move the shortest distance possible from their usual haunts when the river floods to were they feel comfortable and the margins is often the closest place for that.

 

[no-one in particular]

I fished a flooded river today, fished hard on the bottom and all the fish and bites came along the line where the bank edge would have been in normal conditions. They were hugging the bank but not venturing into the newly flooded bit, no bites there or out in the main flow.

 

[tommos16]

A consensus seems to be appearing here, which is great news as an aspiring river angler. I don't know why, but I feel the answers to my 1lb Perch hunt lie in the rivers. I think there's Barbel anglers who actively target the central flow while the river is in flood, and they are brave anglers indeed

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[sam vimes]

I've long believed that it depends hugely on the exact nature of the river and the species of fish concerned. If fish really did disappear downstream with a flood, my local river would be devoid of fish in short order. In normal conditions, it's fast and shallow. It doesn't take much rain on the Pennines to see it rise rapidly. Through Autumn, Winter, Spring and a poor Summer, it's up and down like a to-yo. When it comes up after rain, it's rarely less than 50cm, but it tends to drop nearly as quickly as it comes up.

I hate fishing a rising river, even when the rise isn't huge, my results are invariably poor. It's damned difficult fishing after a really big flood. I tend to avoid fishing really high water because it's bloody dangerous. However, if I'm really pushed, I can usually find the odd fish somewhere. Chances are that it'll involve fishing over gravel I'd expect to be standing on in normal conditions. With a couple of feet of extra water, I'd expect to be able to catch in all of the same places I'd normally fish, provided the river is dropping rather than rising.

 

[tommos16]

It's interesting as well to note a lot of people catch on a rising river when it's tidal, but not for flood water. Which gives credit to the theory its a "dirty" river in flood. I don't know if anyone fishes a tidal river, but out of curiosity - does the water rush in and out like a short flood/fine? Or is it a steady flow with just a bigger head of water?

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[sam vimes]

I don't know if anyone fishes a tidal river, but out of curiosity - does the water rush in and out like a short flood/fine? Or is it a steady flow with just a bigger head of water?

Depends on the geography of the river in question and distance upriver. However, most tidal rivers are likely to show a slow and steady rise outside of exceptionally high tides. A few rivers, like the Severn, with a specific set of circumstances, can produce a bore going the opposite way to a flash flood event.

 

[tommos16]

Thanks Sam, much appreciated. It's the mystery to this sport that keeps me hooked, you'll never know it all. A bit like golf in that respect

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[no-one in particular]

There is a high tide roughly twice a day, the rise is generally gradual for about 5 hours and then there is an hour approx. of slack water as the tide changes and it flows out again for about 5 or 6 hours. The height and strength of flow varies between what are neap and spring tides. Neap tides are the smallest and it takes about 2 weeks for them gradually to change to spring tides which are the highest, spring tides usually occur around midday and midnight and watch these as the current can be quite fierce at times.
It's all to do with the gravitation of the sun and moon, when these are aligned the gravitational pull is strongest so you get spring tides, when the sun and moon are opposed their gravitational pull cancels each other out and the tides are neap, the smallest. As the moon is circling us and we are circling the sun, it changes every day depending on their positions but roughly it it is every two weeks between neap and spring tides..
For fishing it can vary from water to water, best to get local knowledge, but generally somewhere between two hours before and two hours after high water is the best to try if your not sure or to start with and after a while you may find a pattern to the fish feeding. I often found that hour or hour and a half of slack water at the top of the tide the best.
Best to get a local tide table of where your fishing which are on-line. The high water inland will be later than the coastal high water depending on how far inland you are. Some tide tables give you the coastal high water and tell you to add an hour or two for points/towns up river.
It always amazes me these are worked out to the minute and the exact height of each tide well in advance. However, some winds can affect them a bit, a big spring tide occurring with a storm with a gale going upstream can cause a big surge of water, likewise a heavy rainfall can cause a surge going out especially if it is flowing out after a big spring tide as well.
Always be careful and know your tide types, tide times and weather when fishing on the coast or tidal rivers. It takes some getting used to but worth the effort. You can google a town and tide table which will probably get you somewhere for information; most local councils have them online somewhere on their local websites.

 

[The bad one]

I think Seth has it about 95% right with his observations on the Ribble. And here’s why, a quick insight into fluid dynamics. Flow in a river is laminar, see description here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminar_flow. The slowest and therefore the safer place to be in a flooding river is at the sides. Middle of the river is the most dangerous, as the flow is the fastest, even on the bed of the river where the flow is reduced due to the total wedging nature of laminar flow.
However, the flow on the edges is still much slower than anywhere on the bed in the middle, even with objects, large rocks for instance on the bed causing deflections in the flow. What happens in these circumstances is because of the speed of the flow the water flowing over the object causes a vortex behind it, scouring out a depression. A fish hiding behind such an object in this position would get shotblasted by the sedimentary particles coming down the flow.
The same would happen if the fish went into the mid river region under flood conditions due to the flotsam and jetsam speeding down the flow. This detritus, which due to its buoyance level, could be travelling at any level in the water column and being hit by it could be fatal.
The most unsafe place to be in the river under flooding conditions is in the middle river surface layer, probably for a fish, it is the equivalent of the Death Zone for a climber on Everest.

The other 5% of the equation will be made up with other smaller areas elsewhere in the river channel - mid river islands would be one example where the flow is split by it being there. Bridges with in-river support pylons that cause a breach in the flow going around it.

 

[Phil Adams]

I gave up yesterday when a patio lounger floated past me. I often wonder where the fish go though. I reckon those undercut banks get a bit cosy.

 

[tommos16]

I gave up yesterday when a patio lounger floated past me. I often wonder where the fish go though. I reckon those undercut banks get a bit cosy.

Haha it sounds like you fish a similar water to me. I did have some Sticklebacks (I assume) hanging off the back of my worm today while fishing a backeddy. So something is still there. That may be how good it’s going to get after these upcoming floods come and go. Just hoping the snags are cleared as it looks like it’s going to get bad towards the end of this week


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[no-one in particular]

The worse I had was hooking a dead sheep in a flood, I have seen a few coming down in flood rivers, they fall in. They are the stupidest animals. I was once fishing a rising river and opposite me was a sheep standing in the water with it up to its belly just munching the overhanging grass on the bank. I warned some passers by who were heading towards the farm house to tell the farmer. It was still there when I packed up though with the water further up its body but was still just munching the grass so I do not know what became of it.

 

[tommos16]

That's horrific and also, in all honesty, quite funny as well. How they've lasted the test of time I'll never know, we've done them a major favour I think. I once had to rescue a sheep in Llangollen funny enough, it had escaped and got its two front paws stuck down a hole. I got over it, got as good a grip as I could, lifted with all my strength and... Nearly threw it like a discus. They are seriously light, it's bizarre. Easily half as heavy as the collie I had as a pet at the time

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[Phil Adams]

That's horrific and also, in all honesty, quite funny as well. How they've lasted the test of time I'll never know, we've done them a major favour I think. I once had to rescue a sheep in Llangollen funny enough, it had escaped and got its two front paws stuck down a hole. I got over it, got as good a grip as I could, lifted with all my strength and... Nearly threw it like a discus. They are seriously light, it's bizarre. Easily half as heavy as the collie I had as a pet at the time

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And there goes my breakfast ?? I needed that. Thanks ?

 

[tommos16]

Hahaha glad to be of service Phil

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[108831]

Whilst on holiday in Christchurch last week the river rose a bit after constant rain,the debris coming down gets impossible at times,on one evening(Tuesday I think)the river reached it's highest,only perhaps 2-3ft above normal but there were rafts of dead reeds up to 15m long,8m wide,15in high,these were regularly bombing through,the stuff actually underneath the surface is the stuff fish despise,they really don't like it bashing them and often refuse to feed,waiting for debris to ease.

 

[flightliner]

In normal "short of span" floods fish in general are not posed with to many problems, they know where to go for any respite, river bed depressions, bankside cutbacks, tributary mouths/openings, cowdrinks, incoming streams/ beck ends, riverbed obstructions like big rocks, boulders, sunken tree trunks, lock mouths, wier overspills where the water runs back towards it, in fact all manner of places.
So long as they have the body fat/energy for the duration they will survive ok in such places.
All that said however the floods last year were a totally different scenario, mega hi levels and long lasting they were far to much to endure for many fish in the river/s I frequent unless they were in places I've mentioned.
My belief is that many fish, big and small perished as they just couldn't sustain the constant levels of energy required to swim against the flows.
A friend of mine knows of positive sightings of hundreds of Barbel dead in the Humber, Trent, ouse, Don, Dearne, North Yorkshire river fish- who knows?
He was talking about it to an EA official recantly who said many fish would certainly have suffered in the floods last year on the Trent and this years catches on the tidal River would appear to support that claim with poor results for most species and Barbel in particular with many BB anglers moving on to non tidal sections.
Where the smaller silverfish are concerned when I've tried for them my rusults have been patchy to say the least, suggesting that tho in there its small groups, tight together with lots of distance u till another, a far cry from last and previous years.
O7 and 99 floods were bad on the Trent but last year was very much OTT.
Talking to some on the river about it they just can't seem to believe that fish like Barbel can't survive but results would seem to suggest otherwise!
All very worrying I'm afraid!!

 

[flightliner]

Here's a pik of last yrs flooding on the tidal Trent. The river is several hundred yards away.

 

[108831]

Not always the case though Mike,i've fished stretches that fish badly for a season after extremely high water the winter before,fish do not have to open their mouths....

 

[Phil Adams]

It's usually a good 6-7ftdrop from the foot bridge to the surface.